Keris lurus/sepokal Bugis for comment

Roland_M · 20th June 2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferric chloride works very well on new, well polished damascus, however I have not had good results when I have tried it on older blades or pamor material.

Hello Alan,

thank you for your explanation about pamor steel. My sources are obviously wrong and it is not just one. Someone made a translation mistake or so and many German authors adopt that mistake.

Ferric chloride on antique blades is difficult! Some users have very good results, my results with low concentrated FeC-etchants are always bad. FeC causes pitting on my blades and create a nasty surface. A good alternative is Iron III Sulfate with a concentration between 10 and 20%. Iron III Sulfate is a very weak etchant and it is almost impossible to ruin a blade with that etchant.

Roland

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2018, 02:05 PM

I didn't manage to damage any blades with ferric chloride Roland, but I never did get a good result from it on anything but new, polished mechanical damascus.

I don't do that sort of work any more, but if I ever have occasion to need to do it again I'll give your recommendation a go.

jagabuwana · 21st June 2018, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Ferric chloride on antique blades is difficult! Some users have very good results, my results with low concentrated FeC-etchants are always bad. FeC causes pitting on my blades and create a nasty surface. A good alternative is Iron III Sulfate with a concentration between 10 and 20%. Iron III Sulfate is a very weak etchant and it is almost impossible to ruin a blade with that etchant.

Roland

Interesting recommendation - thank you Roland. Have you personally etched or stained any old keris that contained nickel with Iron III Sulfate? If so, I'd be very grateful if you had any photos or examples of this work.

I'd be willing to give it a try, but as you might understand, I would first like to confirm if it is an appropriate substance for a blade of this age and composition.

jagabuwana · 24th June 2018, 02:29 AM

Update: This is the 7th day of soaking this blade in white vinegar (cooking sort).
I thought it was ready but after killing the acid with bicarb, gently scrubbing with creme cleanser and hairdrying, while it's mostly white, some either rapidly forms or becomes visible on some parts. Also some of the pamor comes out a glittering, slightly brass colour.

I was fairly sure I got the rust out from the crevice between the gonjo and blade, and it appears clean when dry, but rust appears again.

I am using a bristle brush to scrub it (slightly harder than a hard tooth brush) and when there were stubborn, harder chunks of rust I used a precision pick.

Is there something I'm doing wrong here, or is it just a matter of soaking for longer? I've removed from the soak, killed the acid and dried on days 5 and 6 also, and the same rust / brass colouring appears.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2018, 04:47 AM

Novan, what you have related seems pretty OK to me, but here is the thing:- if the blade is white and clean with no specks of rust on it immediately after drying, then it is clean.

At that point I would either immediately stain it, which you cannot do, or spray it with WD40 and allow to drain and dry on several successive days.

It sounds to me as if you are seeing surface rust that has been generated simply by atmospheric humidity, or something in the surrounding air, or maybe there is still a slight residue of vinegar or moisture in the grain of the metal.

I'm guessing that right at this moment it is sitting somewhere, nice and dry and waiting for you to come back and get rid of the nasty yellowish tint that has formed on the surface. If so, just let it sit and wait for a few days.

If you think you can give some time to it next Saturday, put it back into clean vinegar on say Thursday. When you take it out on Saturday, rinse thoroughly under running water and dry it, kill the vinegar by brushing a slurry of bi-carb over the blade, let it stand for 5 minutes or so, then in the kitchen sink using warm water, a toothbrush and dishwash detergent, give it a really thorough wash, followed by a really thorough rinse. Pat it dry with a lint free cloth, dry it well with a hair dryer, then go outside and drench it with a WD40 spray. Lean it point down against a wall and let it sit till Sunday, drench it with WD40 again, and again on Monday.

If you still have a problem, PM me, and I'll have a look at it next time I'm in Sydney.

What sort of container are you using to soak it in?

jagabuwana · 24th June 2018, 05:23 AM

Thanks a lot Alan, that's reassuring. I'll be sure to ping you if I still end up having issues

The container is a plastic rectangular plant pot tray.

It's soaking in vinegar again now, I put it back in because seeing the surface rust freaked me out. Should I take it out, bi-carb it, detergent clean it, dry it and drench it in WD40 now?

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2018, 05:47 AM

Nope, leave it there until you have time to do the followup wash and drench. I only said put it in on Thurs. because I figure it probably only needs a couple of days to clean that surface rust off and Thurs. > Sat. would be long enough.

If you have time during the the week, by all means have a look day by day and do the job then if you can.

Jean · 24th June 2018, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

The container is a plastic rectangular plant pot tray.

It's soaking in vinegar again now, I put it back in because seeing the surface rust freaked me out. Should I take it out, bi-carb it, detergent clean it, dry it and drench it in WD40 now?

Acetic acid from the vinegar is volatile so it evaporates quickly and partly looses its reactivity unless the container is closed, you should put a cover on it.

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2018, 09:20 AM

I do not doubt for one moment that you are correct Jean, but I think I might have done something like 300 to 600 keris and other small blades during the last 10 years or so, and all I've ever used is open plastic troughs.

I have of course done more blades than the numbers I quote, however I cannot remember exactly when I started to use vinegar rather than pine juice, but it was certainly more than ten years ago.

Maybe the volatility of the acetic acid is the reason why the vinegar will never damage a blade, no matter how long the blade is left in it:- the acidity of the fluid decreases over time.

In any case, the advice I have given is exactly what I've been doing for years, and it works. For me, it always works perfectly.

20th June 2018, 02:05 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I didn't manage to damage any blades with ferric chloride Roland, but I never did get a good result from it on anything but new, polished mechanical damascus. I don't do that sort of work any more, but if I ever have occasion to need to do it again I'll give your recommendation a go.

24th June 2018, 02:29 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Update: This is the 7th day of soaking this blade in white vinegar (cooking sort). I thought it was ready but after killing the acid with bicarb, gently scrubbing with creme cleanser and hairdrying, while it's mostly white, some either rapidly forms or becomes visible on some parts. Also some of the pamor comes out a glittering, slightly brass colour. I was fairly sure I got the rust out from the crevice between the gonjo and blade, and it appears clean when dry, but rust appears again. I am using a bristle brush to scrub it (slightly harder than a hard tooth brush) and when there were stubborn, harder chunks of rust I used a precision pick. Is there something I'm doing wrong here, or is it just a matter of soaking for longer? I've removed from the soak, killed the acid and dried on days 5 and 6 also, and the same rust / brass colouring appears.

24th June 2018, 04:47 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Novan, what you have related seems pretty OK to me, but here is the thing:- if the blade is white and clean with no specks of rust on it immediately after drying, then it is clean. At that point I would either immediately stain it, which you cannot do, or spray it with WD40 and allow to drain and dry on several successive days. It sounds to me as if you are seeing surface rust that has been generated simply by atmospheric humidity, or something in the surrounding air, or maybe there is still a slight residue of vinegar or moisture in the grain of the metal. I'm guessing that right at this moment it is sitting somewhere, nice and dry and waiting for you to come back and get rid of the nasty yellowish tint that has formed on the surface. If so, just let it sit and wait for a few days. If you think you can give some time to it next Saturday, put it back into clean vinegar on say Thursday. When you take it out on Saturday, rinse thoroughly under running water and dry it, kill the vinegar by brushing a slurry of bi-carb over the blade, let it stand for 5 minutes or so, then in the kitchen sink using warm water, a toothbrush and dishwash detergent, give it a really thorough wash, followed by a really thorough rinse. Pat it dry with a lint free cloth, dry it well with a hair dryer, then go outside and drench it with a WD40 spray. Lean it point down against a wall and let it sit till Sunday, drench it with WD40 again, and again on Monday. If you still have a problem, PM me, and I'll have a look at it next time I'm in Sydney. What sort of container are you using to soak it in?

24th June 2018, 05:23 AM	#6
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thanks a lot Alan, that's reassuring. I'll be sure to ping you if I still end up having issues The container is a plastic rectangular plant pot tray. It's soaking in vinegar again now, I put it back in because seeing the surface rust freaked me out. Should I take it out, bi-carb it, detergent clean it, dry it and drench it in WD40 now?

24th June 2018, 05:47 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Nope, leave it there until you have time to do the followup wash and drench. I only said put it in on Thurs. because I figure it probably only needs a couple of days to clean that surface rust off and Thurs. > Sat. would be long enough. If you have time during the the week, by all means have a look day by day and do the job then if you can.

24th June 2018, 09:20 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I do not doubt for one moment that you are correct Jean, but I think I might have done something like 300 to 600 keris and other small blades during the last 10 years or so, and all I've ever used is open plastic troughs. I have of course done more blades than the numbers I quote, however I cannot remember exactly when I started to use vinegar rather than pine juice, but it was certainly more than ten years ago. Maybe the volatility of the acetic acid is the reason why the vinegar will never damage a blade, no matter how long the blade is left in it:- the acidity of the fluid decreases over time. In any case, the advice I have given is exactly what I've been doing for years, and it works. For me, it always works perfectly.