Help with ID

Hammondtx · 20th June 2018, 02:56 AM

Thanks for moving to the correct section. I had no idea where to start.

What is the reference to shaver cool? I'm a novice on this subject, is that code for a replica?

Here are more pictures, it's some sort of bambo or wood made into a rivet inside the dragons mouth.

M ELEY · 20th June 2018, 11:25 AM

Sorry for not explaining the 'Shaver Cool' reference! It is in the archive. Quite a few years back, we had a post with a sword with VOC markings, brass hilt, and the word 'Shaver Cool' on the blade, believed to be a Dutch ship. The post went on and on without any definite conclusion. I've actually seen a few other swords over the years with the Shaver Cool logo and personally think it might have been a legit ship and history, but the swords all seemed to date to the 30's-40's and tourist. Hilts were often like a dragon, but poorly executed, the VOC markings crude and not very old, etc.

Now yours, on the other hand, is intriguing. The brass is cast and of better quality. It has a real patina, not some touristy 'Made in...' type. The bamboo pin replaces a screw which would have been there originally, common on Dutch swords of this period. The peened tang through the top of the hilt again shows age and well done. In my opinion (and it is ONLY that), this is an old East India Company sword blade with a later (perhaps mid to late 19th c.) hilt similar to a kastane. I don't think it was made for a market sale, but for honest-to-goodness reuse as a weapon. The hilt could have been refitted in a Dutch trading post such as Shri Lanka, the Thai peninsula or perhaps an Indian port. Something about the dragon and the star-like guard makes me think Thai or surrounding area. Now, let me be shot down by others-

Hammondtx, I really like this sword! I know you started out on the Ethnographic Forum and they send you here for the Dutch identification, but I think you still might later repost it there for their opinion of the hilt and where it might have been cast.

Rick · 20th June 2018, 04:21 PM

I'm curious about the eight pointed plates that are attached to the cross guard on each side. They do not seem from the pictures to very ergonomic when it comes to actually using this sabre.

fernando · 20th June 2018, 06:09 PM

Yup !!!

M ELEY · 21st June 2018, 12:40 AM

I got the impression they were langets, based on how the shadowing shows them covering the base of the blade-

Final question for me is, is the hilt hollow or solid cast? Is it tight to the blade or very wiggly?

Rick · 21st June 2018, 02:24 AM

[QUOTE=M ELEY] In my opinion (and it is ONLY that), this is an old East India Company sword blade with a later (perhaps mid to late 19th c.) hilt similar to a kastane. I don't think it was made for a market sale, but for honest-to-goodness reuse as a weapon. The hilt could have been refitted in a Dutch trading post such as Shri Lanka. Now, let me be shot down by others-

[QUOTE]

When I look at the hilt I think Ceylon Mark.

It looks like there was a forward quillon, now gone.

But those plates look like they'd hurt the hand if you choked up on the hilt in use.

Possibly the owner could comment on this with it in hand.

Hammondtx · 21st June 2018, 03:45 AM

Thanks all for the information, it's been interesting researching this. I buy, sell and trade antiques, acquired this sword in a trade. The man I got it from said it was his grandfathers but didn't know anything about his grandfathers travels or dealings. He remembered his grandfather showing it to him as a child but knew nothing else about it.

The plates on the sides aren't uncomfortable at all. I hardly notice them when holding it in hand. Here are some close up pictures of the sword in hand. I'm 6'4" and my hand is a tight fit. My thumb and index finger kind of lay flat on the sides of the plates. I don't feel the points at all.

I can't tell if the hilt is hollow or solid, it's very heavy. It does wiggle a bit if I shake it around but I wouldn't say is was really loose, just moves a fraction.

If you look at the first picture I posted there is a triangle shaped wedge cut out of the side of the dragons neck. Does this look like a repair or is that how it was made?

Rick · 21st June 2018, 04:30 PM

Well, it looks like it is a cut made by hand and soldered or brazed.
You can see that the bottom of one seam looks like it's still open.
I can't imagine accidental damage not deforming the metal around the area.

So maybe this is from the remounting (if it's not the original) of this hilt; and maybe in polish it may not show as clearly.

Peter Dekker · 21st August 2019, 05:01 PM

Hi guys,

I'm a bit late to the party, but the sword is probably from Sumatra. They had a tradition of these lion-headed European style hilts with stirrup type guard. Many VOC blades ended up there in local mounts.

See for another example, with markings to a local Sumatran ruler on the scabbard: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...sumatran-saber

M ELEY · 21st August 2019, 05:17 PM

Thanks for the fascinating link, Peter!

20th June 2018, 02:56 AM	#1
Hammondtx Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Buffalo, TX Posts: 3	Thanks for moving to the correct section. I had no idea where to start. What is the reference to shaver cool? I'm a novice on this subject, is that code for a replica? Here are more pictures, it's some sort of bambo or wood made into a rivet inside the dragons mouth. Attached Images

20th June 2018, 11:25 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Sorry for not explaining the 'Shaver Cool' reference! It is in the archive. Quite a few years back, we had a post with a sword with VOC markings, brass hilt, and the word 'Shaver Cool' on the blade, believed to be a Dutch ship. The post went on and on without any definite conclusion. I've actually seen a few other swords over the years with the Shaver Cool logo and personally think it might have been a legit ship and history, but the swords all seemed to date to the 30's-40's and tourist. Hilts were often like a dragon, but poorly executed, the VOC markings crude and not very old, etc. Now yours, on the other hand, is intriguing. The brass is cast and of better quality. It has a real patina, not some touristy 'Made in...' type. The bamboo pin replaces a screw which would have been there originally, common on Dutch swords of this period. The peened tang through the top of the hilt again shows age and well done. In my opinion (and it is ONLY that), this is an old East India Company sword blade with a later (perhaps mid to late 19th c.) hilt similar to a kastane. I don't think it was made for a market sale, but for honest-to-goodness reuse as a weapon. The hilt could have been refitted in a Dutch trading post such as Shri Lanka, the Thai peninsula or perhaps an Indian port. Something about the dragon and the star-like guard makes me think Thai or surrounding area. Now, let me be shot down by others- Hammondtx, I really like this sword! I know you started out on the Ethnographic Forum and they send you here for the Dutch identification, but I think you still might later repost it there for their opinion of the hilt and where it might have been cast. Last edited by M ELEY; 20th June 2018 at 11:37 AM.

21st June 2018, 03:45 AM	#7
Hammondtx Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Buffalo, TX Posts: 3	Thanks all for the information, it's been interesting researching this. I buy, sell and trade antiques, acquired this sword in a trade. The man I got it from said it was his grandfathers but didn't know anything about his grandfathers travels or dealings. He remembered his grandfather showing it to him as a child but knew nothing else about it. The plates on the sides aren't uncomfortable at all. I hardly notice them when holding it in hand. Here are some close up pictures of the sword in hand. I'm 6'4" and my hand is a tight fit. My thumb and index finger kind of lay flat on the sides of the plates. I don't feel the points at all. I can't tell if the hilt is hollow or solid, it's very heavy. It does wiggle a bit if I shake it around but I wouldn't say is was really loose, just moves a fraction. If you look at the first picture I posted there is a triangle shaped wedge cut out of the side of the dragons neck. Does this look like a repair or is that how it was made? Attached Images

21st June 2018, 04:30 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Well, it looks like it is a cut made by hand and soldered or brazed. You can see that the bottom of one seam looks like it's still open. I can't imagine accidental damage not deforming the metal around the area. So maybe this is from the remounting (if it's not the original) of this hilt; and maybe in polish it may not show as clearly. Attached Images

21st August 2019, 05:01 PM	#9
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Sumatran Hi guys, I'm a bit late to the party, but the sword is probably from Sumatra. They had a tradition of these lion-headed European style hilts with stirrup type guard. Many VOC blades ended up there in local mounts. See for another example, with markings to a local Sumatran ruler on the scabbard: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...sumatran-saber

20th June 2018, 04:21 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'm curious about the eight pointed plates that are attached to the cross guard on each side. They do not seem from the pictures to very ergonomic when it comes to actually using this sabre.

20th June 2018, 06:09 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yup !!!

21st June 2018, 12:40 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I got the impression they were langets, based on how the shadowing shows them covering the base of the blade- Final question for me is, is the hilt hollow or solid cast? Is it tight to the blade or very wiggly?

21st June 2018, 02:24 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	[QUOTE=M ELEY] In my opinion (and it is ONLY that), this is an old East India Company sword blade with a later (perhaps mid to late 19th c.) hilt similar to a kastane. I don't think it was made for a market sale, but for honest-to-goodness reuse as a weapon. The hilt could have been refitted in a Dutch trading post such as Shri Lanka. Now, let me be shot down by others- [QUOTE] When I look at the hilt I think Ceylon Mark. It looks like there was a forward quillon, now gone. But those plates look like they'd hurt the hand if you choked up on the hilt in use. Possibly the owner could comment on this with it in hand.

21st August 2019, 05:17 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for the fascinating link, Peter!