Sepuh or ipuh in a keris

David · 26th April 2018, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle_2010

It left us some questions:
1. Why there are different types of sepuhan in the keris?
2. What is the actual purpose of this "sepuhan" process in the keris making? Is it having the same purpose as "quenching" in the blade making or is there more purpose to it?
3. Is there literally exist a "poisonous keris"?

Hi Oracle. I was waiting for someone like Alan to come along to address your questions since he has far more experience in processes of forging than i do. I am sure if i get some of this wrong either he or someone else will correct me.
As i understand it sepuhan, when the word is applied to the keris forging process, it is the method of harding the blade to make it usable as a real weapon. Quenching would be the first part of that. Then the blade would be tempered, reheated at a somewhat lower themperature, to soften the hardening a little so that the steel is not so brittle and doesn't just crack in use.
These are different blades done by different smiths from somewhat different cultures at different times so it is not surprising that each smith applied this process to different degrees. Some may have felt that just hardening the tip was enough while others went further down the blade. Most keris smiths these days don't bother with this hardening process at all since there is always the risk of cracking and failing welds when to is applied. Since most modern keris are made to be seen for their artistry, not used as weapons, the hardening process becomes a risky and unnecessary step.
I see that you are still wondering about the concept of the poison keris. I believe the first thread you opened specifically on that subject answered those questions for you. Alan stated that he was aware of such a process down with snake venom i believe, though i do not believe it was commonly done with most keris.
Again, any poison that is added and then heated to a high degree in the hardening process would only be made ineffective by that process of heat. If people are saying that such a thing was done it is probably more legend than fact, or if it was done it was a useless procedure because the science of it would be faulty and invalidate the effects of any poison.

A. G. Maisey · 26th April 2018, 11:29 PM

I'm not at home David, moving around a bit, and pressed for time.

1. Why there are different types of sepuhan in the keris?

Different makers, different times, different objectives.

2. What is the actual purpose of this "sepuhan" process in the keris making? Is it having the same purpose as "quenching" in the blade making or is there more purpose to it?

As David has said, to make the blade usable as a weapon, however, a keris is not drawn after the initial quench, the fact that it is a laminated blade and that the iron/nickel pamor does not harden during the quench protects against fracture in use. Ferric material needs to contain carbon in order to harden. Steel contains carbon, iron does not, neither does nickel.

3. Is there literally exist a "poisonous keris"?

Any non-sterile keris plunged into your guts will poison you.

I have never heard of a sterile keris.

oracle_2010 · 27th April 2018, 01:17 PM

Hi David & Alan, thank you for your explanation.
By the way, the keris Minang pictured here is actually small one (the blade is less than 25 cm in length) and it got sepuhan on the tip part of the blade.

I have seen the previous thread which discuss the small keris or called keris selit in the Malay culture which is functioned as dressing companion. But judging from the sepuhan exist on the keris that I've shown you, is it possible that these small keris may have practical function (eg: as a weapon)?

I also attached picture of a tombak from Palembang with sepuhan only on the tip part.

David · 27th April 2018, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle_2010

Hi David & Alan, thank you for your explanation.
By the way, the keris Minang pictured here is actually small one (the blade is less than 25 cm in length) and it got sepuhan on the tip part of the blade.

I have seen the previous thread which discuss the small keris or called keris selit in the Malay culture which is functioned as dressing companion. But judging from the sepuhan exist on the keris that I've shown you, is it possible that these small keris may have practical function (eg: as a weapon)?

I also attached picture of a tombak from Palembang with sepuhan only on the tip part.

Hi Oracle. AFAIK Keris selit is specific certain areas of Malay culture. Minangkabau culture is distinctly different from the Malay cultures of the Peninsula as well as other cultures on Sumatra. I do not believe they have a tradition of keris selit as a dress function. From my understanding Minang keris tend towards the shorter side.
Keris are stabbing weapons so the most important area of the blade for harding would be the tip.
BTW, as with all new members, your posts go through moderation queue for a period of time before being posted to the forum. Please don't double post your replies. We check the moderation cue regularly and will pass your posts as quickly as possible. Thanks!

Gustav · 27th April 2018, 10:24 PM

David, Negeri Sembilan on Malay Peninsula actually has very strong Minang roots.

Some quotes from Newbold, 1839:

"The inhabitants of the states in the interior of the southerly part of the Malayan peninsula, particularly those of Sungie ujong, or Simujong, Rumbowe, Johole, and Srimenanti, derive their origin from the parent empire of Menangkabowe, in Sumatra, more directly than the natives of the neighbouring states."

"Sir S. Raffles, in a letter to Mr. Marsden, thus notices the state of Rumbowe: "Inland of Malacca, about sixty miles, is situated the Malay kingdom of Rumbowe, whose Sultan, and all the principal officers of state, hold their authority immediately from Menangkabowe, and have written commissions for their respective offices. This shows the extent of that ancient power, even now reduced as it must be in common with that of the Malay people in general. I had many opportunities of communicating with the natives of Rumbowe, and they have clearly a peculiar dialect, resembling exactly what you mention of substituting the final o for a (...). In fact, the dialect is called by the Malacca people the language of Menangkabowe."
The forgoing remarks apply equally to the three adjoining states, Sungie-ujong, Johole, and Srimenanti, and, as has been aqlready observed, to Naning. It is also worthy of remark, that in the ancient records of the Dutch, preserved in the archives of Malacca, the natives of Rumbowe and Naning are invariably styled "Menangkabowes".

The Malacca Straits and even interior parts of Sumatra and Malay Peninsula for a long time have been an incredible mix of ethnic groups, and this we see mirrored also in Keris.

Regarding Keris Selit, here an old interesting thread, which mentions several restrictive bans as a possible purpose of their emergence. Unfortunately it leaves us without proper facts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=273

Knowing the character of Malay people, I can imagine them used as actual weapons, at least in 19th cent.

David · 28th April 2018, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, Negeri Sembilan on Malay Peninsula actually has very strong Minang roots.

Some quotes from Newbold, 1839:

"The inhabitants of the states in the interior of the southerly part of the Malayan peninsula, particularly those of Sungie ujong, or Simujong, Rumbowe, Johole, and Srimenanti, derive their origin from the parent empire of Menangkabowe, in Sumatra, more directly than the natives of the neighbouring states."

"Sir S. Raffles, in a letter to Mr. Marsden, thus notices the state of Rumbowe: "Inland of Malacca, about sixty miles, is situated the Malay kingdom of Rumbowe, whose Sultan, and all the principal officers of state, hold their authority immediately from Menangkabowe, and have written commissions for their respective offices. This shows the extent of that ancient power, even now reduced as it must be in common with that of the Malay people in general. I had many opportunities of communicating with the natives of Rumbowe, and they have clearly a peculiar dialect, resembling exactly what you mention of substituting the final o for a (...). In fact, the dialect is called by the Malacca people the language of Menangkabowe."
The forgoing remarks apply equally to the three adjoining states, Sungie-ujong, Johole, and Srimenanti, and, as has been aqlready observed, to Naning. It is also worthy of remark, that in the ancient records of the Dutch, preserved in the archives of Malacca, the natives of Rumbowe and Naning are invariably styled "Menangkabowes".

The Malacca Straits and even interior parts of Sumatra and Malay Peninsula for a long time have been an incredible mix of ethnic groups, and this we see mirrored also in Keris.

Regarding Keris Selit, here an old interesting thread, which mentions several restrictive bans as a possible purpose of their emergence. Unfortunately it leaves us without proper facts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=273

Knowing the character of Malay people, I can imagine them used as actual weapons, at least in 19th cent.

Thanks for this information Gustav, but i don't think it counters what i was trying to get across. Cultures of the archipelago have always mixed and settlements of different cultures have been settled in areas away from there place of origin through the history of the Indonesian area. We find enclaves of Balinese in Madura and the Bugis have certainly maintained settlements all over the archipelago. I think it is still fair to say that the culture in Rumbowe, for instance, whose sultan owed his authority to Minangkabau, followed customs closer to that of Minangkabau than the Malays of the mainland Peninsula. The question centered around whether this keris might be a keris selit and whether there is any tradition of keris selit within the Minang culture (i am still not certain if there is or is not, but have never heard of such a tradition). So the question remains as to whether or not we can view this keris as selit. Minang keris do, however, tend towards the smaller size in general and this one is almost 10 inches long (longer than many keris selit) so i am inclined to think that is was not intended as a keris selit. That it has been hardened for use as a weapon validates that somewhat, though you may well be correct that some keris selit may also have received sepuhan.

Gustav · 28th April 2018, 09:39 PM

Sorry David, I know. Just when I read "Minangkabau culture is distinctly different from the Malay cultures of the Peninsula as well as other cultures on Sumatra", - Minang culture IS Malay culture, and a part of the Malay culture on Peninsula, one of it's oldest parts. Encyclopaedia Britannica from 1911 says:

"MENANGKABOS, the most civilized of all the true Malays of Sumatra, inhabiting the mountains above Padang. Their district is regarded as the cradle of the Malay race, and thence began, about 1160, those migrations which ended in the true Malays becoming the dominant race throughout the peninsula and the Malay Archipelago."

The date mentioned is somewhat of a legend, but around 1400 there is a bigger wave of Minang settling in Peninsula.

Well, I don't know about connection between small sized Minang Keris and dress Keris on Peninsula. What is for sure, Keris Panjang on Peninsula is an invention by Minang, the best Panjang coming from Rumbowe.

But it is appropriate to say, Keris (Karih) is part of ceremonial Minang dress. Being primarily such and not a weapon anymore, Keris surely becomes diminutive in size. Known are even Minang specimens with wooden blades.

Regarding influence of bans on wearing Kris on emergence of diminutive Keris form - wasn't there a ban on Keris imposed by Dutch on Minang after the Padri wars, which ended 1837?

27th April 2018, 01:17 PM	#3
oracle_2010 Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 6	Small (dress?) Keris Minang with sepuhan on the tip Hi David & Alan, thank you for your explanation. By the way, the keris Minang pictured here is actually small one (the blade is less than 25 cm in length) and it got sepuhan on the tip part of the blade. I have seen the previous thread which discuss the small keris or called keris selit in the Malay culture which is functioned as dressing companion. But judging from the sepuhan exist on the keris that I've shown you, is it possible that these small keris may have practical function (eg: as a weapon)? I also attached picture of a tombak from Palembang with sepuhan only on the tip part. Attached Images

26th April 2018, 11:29 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I'm not at home David, moving around a bit, and pressed for time. 1. Why there are different types of sepuhan in the keris? Different makers, different times, different objectives. 2. What is the actual purpose of this "sepuhan" process in the keris making? Is it having the same purpose as "quenching" in the blade making or is there more purpose to it? As David has said, to make the blade usable as a weapon, however, a keris is not drawn after the initial quench, the fact that it is a laminated blade and that the iron/nickel pamor does not harden during the quench protects against fracture in use. Ferric material needs to contain carbon in order to harden. Steel contains carbon, iron does not, neither does nickel. 3. Is there literally exist a "poisonous keris"? Any non-sterile keris plunged into your guts will poison you. I have never heard of a sterile keris.

27th April 2018, 10:24 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	David, Negeri Sembilan on Malay Peninsula actually has very strong Minang roots. Some quotes from Newbold, 1839: "The inhabitants of the states in the interior of the southerly part of the Malayan peninsula, particularly those of Sungie ujong, or Simujong, Rumbowe, Johole, and Srimenanti, derive their origin from the parent empire of Menangkabowe, in Sumatra, more directly than the natives of the neighbouring states." "Sir S. Raffles, in a letter to Mr. Marsden, thus notices the state of Rumbowe: "Inland of Malacca, about sixty miles, is situated the Malay kingdom of Rumbowe, whose Sultan, and all the principal officers of state, hold their authority immediately from Menangkabowe, and have written commissions for their respective offices. This shows the extent of that ancient power, even now reduced as it must be in common with that of the Malay people in general. I had many opportunities of communicating with the natives of Rumbowe, and they have clearly a peculiar dialect, resembling exactly what you mention of substituting the final o for a (...). In fact, the dialect is called by the Malacca people the language of Menangkabowe." The forgoing remarks apply equally to the three adjoining states, Sungie-ujong, Johole, and Srimenanti, and, as has been aqlready observed, to Naning. It is also worthy of remark, that in the ancient records of the Dutch, preserved in the archives of Malacca, the natives of Rumbowe and Naning are invariably styled "Menangkabowes". The Malacca Straits and even interior parts of Sumatra and Malay Peninsula for a long time have been an incredible mix of ethnic groups, and this we see mirrored also in Keris. Regarding Keris Selit, here an old interesting thread, which mentions several restrictive bans as a possible purpose of their emergence. Unfortunately it leaves us without proper facts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=273 Knowing the character of Malay people, I can imagine them used as actual weapons, at least in 19th cent.

28th April 2018, 09:39 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Sorry David, I know. Just when I read "Minangkabau culture is distinctly different from the Malay cultures of the Peninsula as well as other cultures on Sumatra", - Minang culture IS Malay culture, and a part of the Malay culture on Peninsula, one of it's oldest parts. Encyclopaedia Britannica from 1911 says: "MENANGKABOS, the most civilized of all the true Malays of Sumatra, inhabiting the mountains above Padang. Their district is regarded as the cradle of the Malay race, and thence began, about 1160, those migrations which ended in the true Malays becoming the dominant race throughout the peninsula and the Malay Archipelago." The date mentioned is somewhat of a legend, but around 1400 there is a bigger wave of Minang settling in Peninsula. Well, I don't know about connection between small sized Minang Keris and dress Keris on Peninsula. What is for sure, Keris Panjang on Peninsula is an invention by Minang, the best Panjang coming from Rumbowe. But it is appropriate to say, Keris (Karih) is part of ceremonial Minang dress. Being primarily such and not a weapon anymore, Keris surely becomes diminutive in size. Known are even Minang specimens with wooden blades. Regarding influence of bans on wearing Kris on emergence of diminutive Keris form - wasn't there a ban on Keris imposed by Dutch on Minang after the Padri wars, which ended 1837?