Estradiot Yataghan

ariel · 24th April 2018, 12:03 AM

Theodor,

I agree with you that the blade is very simple and could have been made anywhere in the Balkans. That is exactly the reason why I ignored it in my original discussion.

And yes, the handle is the plum in the pudding.

ariel · 20th October 2018, 03:02 PM

Just an aside about karakulaks.

I found a Russian paper about weapons of Karachay-Balkaria: Northern Caucasus region. The paper is written by Soltan Elkanov, a highly respected weapon historian from the above area, very objective and not given to jingoistic tendencies.
He shows examples of fighting knives from the Golden Horde ( upper two pics) and an example of two Crimean bichaqs.
IMHO, they are remarkably similar to Bulgarian karakulaks. He cites a French consul in Crimea ( 1757) describing mass production of knives ( up to 400,000 units per year) and exported to the Caucasus, Black Sea area ( Bulgaria??) etc.
Taken into account history of Bulgarian nation ( Asparukh), one can suggest a common origin of Kipchak/Kuman/Tatar weapons and Bulgarian karakulaks. My colleague Sergei Samgin and I published a paper about a potential source of Ottoman yataghans : Ottoman invasion of Crimea in 1475, closely preceding the first royal yataghans of Bayazet and Suleiman.

TVV · 21st October 2018, 06:28 PM

This is interesting food for thought, and there could be a link. In the early 14th century, the Golden Horde became an important ally to the Bulgarian state, and supplied troops to virtually all major battles fought by the Bulgarian tsars. These troops often proved to be the difference - they were late to arrive at Velbazhd, which to a great extent decided the outcome in favor of the Serbian Kingdom, for example. Tatar military equipment was certainly known and available in the Balkans.

kamachate · 13th November 2018, 07:16 PM

Dear all,
I am not qualified to talk on yataghans, but I want to draw some attention to the niello fittings. These ones on the sample (both the rivets and the one at the end of the pommel) remind me of the horse harness fittings of the Caucasian saddles. May I have the courage to suggest that these fittings are a secondary use from a saddle harness?

We do know that the harness fittings were used mostly on belts, but also bracelets, necklaces, and even on kindjals and shashkas. Here I attached two photos I just surfed on the net. Many -and precise parallels- can be found with a detailed search. So, IMHO, the "last touch" to the sample should be around the 2nd half of the 19th century, but the blade is of course an other story.

kamachate · 13th November 2018, 07:26 PM

Additionally, none of the niello fittings seem to be functional, which makes me think of some silver fittings from a harness used to dress it.
The pieces on a harness can easily be enough for a few "circassian" or "caucasian" belts, and yet some more will be spared for silver fittings where needed. I do have a similar piece on my shashka

ariel · 14th November 2018, 10:57 AM

Thanks for the examples. Indeed, they are very similar: simple examples of bosses with economical decorations.
IMHO, it would not be likely for a Balkan weapon to use details of Caucasian objects: I am unaware of any trade. Unless, of course one postulates reuse of broken equipment brought to the Balkans by Circassian muhajirs ( exiles) after massive ethnic cleansing of Circassians by the Russians or reuse of Russian military equipment from the Russo-Turkish war. Both events occurred in the second half of the 19 century. So, you might be correct with your dating. However, equally plausible might be local manufacture of simple parts with rather predictable decoration: kind of parallel development.

You are perfectly correct: these bosses have no practical mechanical use, they do not serve as reinforcers of anything. And that is exactly my point: they mimic the old and elaborate examples of ear daggers, so beloved by the Estradiots. As I said from the beginning this yataghan/karakulak is a homage to Estradiot weapon, NOT the contemporaneous Estradiot weapon.This would strengthen the feeling that it is of a relatively late manufacture. On that we are in agreement.

teratoni · 26th November 2018, 09:57 PM

The Yatagan of Suleiman the Magnificent is present to him by Osman bey(Yatagan baba)
In 1526 Osman conquered village Yatagan in Asia minor.
1516 is the end of 300 years old Bulgarian kingdom(own kings añd coins, Karamans ally) in Asia minor near the mountain Bulgardag and 100 km away from Yatagan village.
Master name is Tekeli - famous family name at Balkans - in old bulgarian translation of The Bible means Schekel.
Yat (ят) is old bulgarian letter with a form of a single edged sword and d-handle. Other old bulgarian letters Ф double axe and У sickle.
Gan -кан - ruller.
The father of Asparukh was Kubrat, VII century,the ruler of Crimea and his famous in this lands sword was made in Asia minor.
"Kr" in bulgarian, rusian deutch means - circle , gard- garden, Kreml..kulak means to slaghter - cut troath, ang Karakulak - round troath cutter.
Trakians have the same round swords wich name in bulgarian means to cut - Sika.
All around the famous centre of Wutz steel Merv we can find curved single edged blades and this village is in old bulgarians homeland Baktria.

20th October 2018, 03:02 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just an aside about karakulaks. I found a Russian paper about weapons of Karachay-Balkaria: Northern Caucasus region. The paper is written by Soltan Elkanov, a highly respected weapon historian from the above area, very objective and not given to jingoistic tendencies. He shows examples of fighting knives from the Golden Horde ( upper two pics) and an example of two Crimean bichaqs. IMHO, they are remarkably similar to Bulgarian karakulaks. He cites a French consul in Crimea ( 1757) describing mass production of knives ( up to 400,000 units per year) and exported to the Caucasus, Black Sea area ( Bulgaria??) etc. Taken into account history of Bulgarian nation ( Asparukh), one can suggest a common origin of Kipchak/Kuman/Tatar weapons and Bulgarian karakulaks. My colleague Sergei Samgin and I published a paper about a potential source of Ottoman yataghans : Ottoman invasion of Crimea in 1475, closely preceding the first royal yataghans of Bayazet and Suleiman. Attached Images

13th November 2018, 07:16 PM	#4
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Dear all, I am not qualified to talk on yataghans, but I want to draw some attention to the niello fittings. These ones on the sample (both the rivets and the one at the end of the pommel) remind me of the horse harness fittings of the Caucasian saddles. May I have the courage to suggest that these fittings are a secondary use from a saddle harness? We do know that the harness fittings were used mostly on belts, but also bracelets, necklaces, and even on kindjals and shashkas. Here I attached two photos I just surfed on the net. Many -and precise parallels- can be found with a detailed search. So, IMHO, the "last touch" to the sample should be around the 2nd half of the 19th century, but the blade is of course an other story. Attached Images

24th April 2018, 12:03 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Theodor, I agree with you that the blade is very simple and could have been made anywhere in the Balkans. That is exactly the reason why I ignored it in my original discussion. And yes, the handle is the plum in the pudding.

21st October 2018, 06:28 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	This is interesting food for thought, and there could be a link. In the early 14th century, the Golden Horde became an important ally to the Bulgarian state, and supplied troops to virtually all major battles fought by the Bulgarian tsars. These troops often proved to be the difference - they were late to arrive at Velbazhd, which to a great extent decided the outcome in favor of the Serbian Kingdom, for example. Tatar military equipment was certainly known and available in the Balkans.

13th November 2018, 07:26 PM	#5
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Additionally, none of the niello fittings seem to be functional, which makes me think of some silver fittings from a harness used to dress it. The pieces on a harness can easily be enough for a few "circassian" or "caucasian" belts, and yet some more will be spared for silver fittings where needed. I do have a similar piece on my shashka

14th November 2018, 10:57 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the examples. Indeed, they are very similar: simple examples of bosses with economical decorations. IMHO, it would not be likely for a Balkan weapon to use details of Caucasian objects: I am unaware of any trade. Unless, of course one postulates reuse of broken equipment brought to the Balkans by Circassian muhajirs ( exiles) after massive ethnic cleansing of Circassians by the Russians or reuse of Russian military equipment from the Russo-Turkish war. Both events occurred in the second half of the 19 century. So, you might be correct with your dating. However, equally plausible might be local manufacture of simple parts with rather predictable decoration: kind of parallel development. You are perfectly correct: these bosses have no practical mechanical use, they do not serve as reinforcers of anything. And that is exactly my point: they mimic the old and elaborate examples of ear daggers, so beloved by the Estradiots. As I said from the beginning this yataghan/karakulak is a homage to Estradiot weapon, NOT the contemporaneous Estradiot weapon.This would strengthen the feeling that it is of a relatively late manufacture. On that we are in agreement.

26th November 2018, 09:57 PM	#7
teratoni Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Varna, Bulgaria Posts: 1	The Yatagan of Suleiman the Magnificent is present to him by Osman bey(Yatagan baba) In 1526 Osman conquered village Yatagan in Asia minor. 1516 is the end of 300 years old Bulgarian kingdom(own kings añd coins, Karamans ally) in Asia minor near the mountain Bulgardag and 100 km away from Yatagan village. Master name is Tekeli - famous family name at Balkans - in old bulgarian translation of The Bible means Schekel. Yat (ят) is old bulgarian letter with a form of a single edged sword and d-handle. Other old bulgarian letters Ф double axe and У sickle. Gan -кан - ruller. The father of Asparukh was Kubrat, VII century,the ruler of Crimea and his famous in this lands sword was made in Asia minor. "Kr" in bulgarian, rusian deutch means - circle , gard- garden, Kreml..kulak means to slaghter - cut troath, ang Karakulak - round troath cutter. Trakians have the same round swords wich name in bulgarian means to cut - Sika. All around the famous centre of Wutz steel Merv we can find curved single edged blades and this village is in old bulgarians homeland Baktria.