Interesting "wallhanger"

David · 18th February 2018, 04:49 PM

Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

Treeslicer · 18th February 2018, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

OK, thanks anyway. I feel virtuous for having provided the keris collecting community with a truly horrid benchmark from which they may judge the excellence of their own examples.

David · 18th February 2018, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treeslicer

OK, thanks anyway. I feel virtuous for having provided the keris collecting community with a truly horrid benchmark from which they may judge the excellence of their own examples.

Believe me Treeslicer, i am not trying to be harsh, but this is not the type of keris that most collectors take all that seriously or spend much time doing any serious assessments on. As best i can tell this keris was created with a very limited skill set as a reproduction of the well known naga sosro dhapur. Many such reproductions make an effort to present themselves with some particular level of craft. The second one you show raises the craft level somewhat for sure. As Alan has pointed out, this level of craft is indeed reflected in value. While i do not discount the possibility that this one may have seen legitimate cultural usage, perhaps in service for a wedding or some other official affair that called for a keris as part of formal dress, i see it this type of keris more as a marketplace souvenir piece not particularly worthy of serious discussion. Higher levels of craft in these reproductions carry more value, using better materials, actual gold instead of brass for the kinatah and be found in fine bejeweled dress. Those examples can be seen as "art" keris and some may find them more collectable. I am not trying to sound smug or dismissive, but i simply don't know what else there is to be said about an example such as the one you have presented to us. Many keris enthusiasts would be more likely to refer to it as a keris-like-object rather than a legitimate keris.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2018, 11:19 PM

I'd be inclined to call these things "keris", David, for the simple reason that today they fulfill the function of the keris as an item of formal dress.

Certainly others would disagree with me and have them as "keris-like objects", but to my mind this is a little bit unrealistic. Fact of the matter is that no matter how rich or how poor you are, once in while you need to get dressed up in formal gear, and for that, you need a keris. If you want to own the keris rather than borrow or rent it, you buy what you can afford.

Maybe 100 years ago, even 30 years ago, tourists did buy sharp pointy things to take home with them, but this is a very rare occurrence these days. I know dealers in Central Jawa who have not sold any type of keris or sword or dagger to any tourists in the last three years. In Bali it is very, very difficult to even find keris now.

Tourist or souvenir keris? Forget it.

Dress keris for local consumption? Yes, ongoing trade.

The things in this thread are keris, no doubt about it, but not particularly desirable ones from the point of view of a collector of keris.

David · 19th February 2018, 12:32 AM

Thanks Alan. I don't think i really disagreed with you in my last post and did indeed acknowledge its possible use in formal wear for those without a family keris for their attire.
I won't debate whether tourists still bring such things back from their trips to Indonesia, though i personally know some who have (non-keris collectors wanting to bring a piece of their trip home). But i have seen similar things here in the States in stores that specialize in Indonesian imports, so they serve a similar purpose in that context i guess. This is not to say that they still don't serve a local purpose as well.
Tree slicer seems to tells us this is not a pattern welded blade and the the pamor pattern has been simulated by creating raised lines in the blade. Personally, from my own perspective, that allows me to lean more towards keris-like-object and legitimate keris since it does not appear that it was made in a traditional fashion. You once told us, i believe, of witnessing a cardboard keris used as part of dress in a formal occasion. While being used for a genuine cultural event would you still regard that as a legitimate keris?

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2018, 03:09 AM

Yep, I've seen a piece of cardboard used to support keris dress. Obviously not a keris.

Why?

If I can consider something that is of very inferior workmanship a keris, why can I not consider a piece of cardboard, or a piece of wood a keris if it looks like a keris and fulfills the function of a keris?

The reason is that cardboard and wood cannot be tosan aji :- honoured iron. Iron is the essential component. Doesn't really matter how rough the work is, provided it vaguely resembles what it is intended to be, provided it is made of iron, it qualifies as tosan aji. The form represents an idea, just as two rough sticks crossed represent an idea to a Christian, and the honour of the idea comes from man.

At the present time in Bali, one of current working pande keris is recognised as the only true pande keris because he knows the correct mantras and observances for the making of a sacred keris. Such a keris from his hands will cost much more than a piece of high art from any of the other makers. But do not expect high art from this man's hands. The keris that he produces are not of any value artistically, but they are of high value talismanically.

When we raise the question of things made in traditional fashion, we need to ask just exactly what that "traditional fashion" is.

Does "traditional fashion" need to incorporate the washing of iron to make it usable? Does it need to incorporate different metals to create contrast in a blade?

The palace guards of the Mangkunegaraan were armed with tombak and pedang that were made from homogenous steel. This was used to replace the old multi-folded material as soon as it became available.

Empu Jayasukadgo of the Karaton Susuhunan made a number of keris and other weapons from modern, homogenous steel. Other pande keris working in Jawa also used modern steel for weapons as soon as it became available.
Why?
It was superior material. They still made pamor blades when required, but these were made primarily for their talismanic properties, not to use as weapons.

Craftsmen have always used the most modern technology available to produce their craft. It is not the way that something is made that makes it a traditional artefact, it is the way that the people who own the culture that owns that artefact regards it that validates its authenticity.

Once again using Christianity as an example.
Does a cross need to be made in a particular fashion in order to make it a legitimate symbol of the Christian faith?
I rather think not. It is the way in which a Christian regards that cross that gives it its legitimacy.

It is no different with the keris.

I have no problem at all in accepting that many collectors will not accept as collectable items, keris such as are under discussion in this thread, however, it is simply not possible to deny that those non-collectable items are keris.

David R · 19th February 2018, 10:00 AM

Thank you A. G. Maisey for the above. A very interesting insight to Keris, that is not just from the collectors point of view but from it's living tradition.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2018, 08:08 PM

Treeslicer, these keris are from the same era, post-WWII, post-1950, in the case of the second keris, post-1980.

The first one might be Sumenep production, but more likely is Jogja production.

The second one is Sumenep production.

In this style of keris, from this era, there can be a lot of variation in quality. These items are handmade, craft productions, we can expect variation in quality and in execution, and this variation is reflected in value.

18th February 2018, 04:49 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

18th February 2018, 11:19 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I'd be inclined to call these things "keris", David, for the simple reason that today they fulfill the function of the keris as an item of formal dress. Certainly others would disagree with me and have them as "keris-like objects", but to my mind this is a little bit unrealistic. Fact of the matter is that no matter how rich or how poor you are, once in while you need to get dressed up in formal gear, and for that, you need a keris. If you want to own the keris rather than borrow or rent it, you buy what you can afford. Maybe 100 years ago, even 30 years ago, tourists did buy sharp pointy things to take home with them, but this is a very rare occurrence these days. I know dealers in Central Jawa who have not sold any type of keris or sword or dagger to any tourists in the last three years. In Bali it is very, very difficult to even find keris now. Tourist or souvenir keris? Forget it. Dress keris for local consumption? Yes, ongoing trade. The things in this thread are keris, no doubt about it, but not particularly desirable ones from the point of view of a collector of keris.

19th February 2018, 12:32 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Alan. I don't think i really disagreed with you in my last post and did indeed acknowledge its possible use in formal wear for those without a family keris for their attire. I won't debate whether tourists still bring such things back from their trips to Indonesia, though i personally know some who have (non-keris collectors wanting to bring a piece of their trip home). But i have seen similar things here in the States in stores that specialize in Indonesian imports, so they serve a similar purpose in that context i guess. This is not to say that they still don't serve a local purpose as well. Tree slicer seems to tells us this is not a pattern welded blade and the the pamor pattern has been simulated by creating raised lines in the blade. Personally, from my own perspective, that allows me to lean more towards keris-like-object and legitimate keris since it does not appear that it was made in a traditional fashion. You once told us, i believe, of witnessing a cardboard keris used as part of dress in a formal occasion. While being used for a genuine cultural event would you still regard that as a legitimate keris?

19th February 2018, 03:09 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yep, I've seen a piece of cardboard used to support keris dress. Obviously not a keris. Why? If I can consider something that is of very inferior workmanship a keris, why can I not consider a piece of cardboard, or a piece of wood a keris if it looks like a keris and fulfills the function of a keris? The reason is that cardboard and wood cannot be tosan aji :- honoured iron. Iron is the essential component. Doesn't really matter how rough the work is, provided it vaguely resembles what it is intended to be, provided it is made of iron, it qualifies as tosan aji. The form represents an idea, just as two rough sticks crossed represent an idea to a Christian, and the honour of the idea comes from man. At the present time in Bali, one of current working pande keris is recognised as the only true pande keris because he knows the correct mantras and observances for the making of a sacred keris. Such a keris from his hands will cost much more than a piece of high art from any of the other makers. But do not expect high art from this man's hands. The keris that he produces are not of any value artistically, but they are of high value talismanically. When we raise the question of things made in traditional fashion, we need to ask just exactly what that "traditional fashion" is. Does "traditional fashion" need to incorporate the washing of iron to make it usable? Does it need to incorporate different metals to create contrast in a blade? The palace guards of the Mangkunegaraan were armed with tombak and pedang that were made from homogenous steel. This was used to replace the old multi-folded material as soon as it became available. Empu Jayasukadgo of the Karaton Susuhunan made a number of keris and other weapons from modern, homogenous steel. Other pande keris working in Jawa also used modern steel for weapons as soon as it became available. Why? It was superior material. They still made pamor blades when required, but these were made primarily for their talismanic properties, not to use as weapons. Craftsmen have always used the most modern technology available to produce their craft. It is not the way that something is made that makes it a traditional artefact, it is the way that the people who own the culture that owns that artefact regards it that validates its authenticity. Once again using Christianity as an example. Does a cross need to be made in a particular fashion in order to make it a legitimate symbol of the Christian faith? I rather think not. It is the way in which a Christian regards that cross that gives it its legitimacy. It is no different with the keris. I have no problem at all in accepting that many collectors will not accept as collectable items, keris such as are under discussion in this thread, however, it is simply not possible to deny that those non-collectable items are keris.

19th February 2018, 10:00 AM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Thank you A. G. Maisey for the above. A very interesting insight to Keris, that is not just from the collectors point of view but from it's living tradition.

18th February 2018, 08:08 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Treeslicer, these keris are from the same era, post-WWII, post-1950, in the case of the second keris, post-1980. The first one might be Sumenep production, but more likely is Jogja production. The second one is Sumenep production. In this style of keris, from this era, there can be a lot of variation in quality. These items are handmade, craft productions, we can expect variation in quality and in execution, and this variation is reflected in value.