Interesting "wallhanger"

Treeslicer · 16th February 2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Welcome to the forum Treeslicer. I don't want to discourage you, but in all honesty i would find far more interest in the run-over cane toad.

These poorly chiseled motifs are not uncommon and frankly i don't know where any useful discussion might go on this. Many real naga blades will have chiseling along the naga body to simulate snake scales. The differences between the carvings of the Bali keris you linked to and yours are pretty far apart for comparison though.

Thanks. It actually differs quite a bit from the usual line of "X" lackadaisically up the naga body as scales, the minimal leaf motifs added for a third of the way up the blade (as well as on the ganja), a few holes drilled here-and-there for "filligree", "surface pamor" added by rubbing stainless tableware over the blade, climaxed with a head that more resembles a mastiff than a naga, that one more usually sees. As I've previously noted, this example is no masterpiece, but, IMHO, it's not any closer to the common "souvenir" tradition than it is to KBA 12.

I've further reduced the comparison photo, so it would upload. The head on the comparison Naga Sasra is better than most, more like a Doberman than a mastiff, but the quality of the rendition of Semar on the handle suggests that the carver was not a superstitious person.

kai · 18th February 2018, 01:24 AM

Quote:

As I've previously noted, this example is no masterpiece, but, IMHO, it's not any closer to the common "souvenir" tradition than it is to KBA 12.

I've further reduced the comparison photo, so it would upload. The head on the comparison Naga Sasra is better than most, more like a Doberman than a mastiff, but the quality of the rendition of Semar on the handle suggests that the carver was not a superstitious person.

Well, hilts (and mendak) of less than stellar quality can be found all over the place.

If we concentrate on the blade, I'm afraid I don't see that much of a difference between those 2 kamardikan pieces - maybe a close-up is needed, too.

If anything, the proportions and placement of the figural carving seem to suggest somewhat better craftsmanship in the other piece...

Regards,
Kai

Treeslicer · 18th February 2018, 06:26 AM

Kai, here's a close up. I got this from processing the original comparison shot, but can take more photos if necessary.

Note the basic differences in style from the closeups above. What's here is what I would consider a "usual" or "canonical" Naga Sasra, and any number of similar blades can be found on eBay (some of which make either of mine look like Benvenuto Cellini carved them, by comparison), as well as on Indonesian keris websites. I find the styles differ sufficiently to expect a different origin. Something that you can't see in these views is that the keris in the latest detail has a high angle edge along most of its length, like a cold chisel edge, while the peculiar one is actually quite sharp.

I wish to underline again that my curiosity has nothing to do with value here, but with why this one keris looks nothing like any number of items of the same dapur taken randomly from the Internet. It's almost like whoever carved it had a description, but had never seen one before.

BTW, the steel on the OP keris, while not apparently folded, isn't bad, and has a good, stiff temper to it

David · 18th February 2018, 04:49 PM

Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

Treeslicer · 18th February 2018, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

OK, thanks anyway. I feel virtuous for having provided the keris collecting community with a truly horrid benchmark from which they may judge the excellence of their own examples.

David · 18th February 2018, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treeslicer

OK, thanks anyway. I feel virtuous for having provided the keris collecting community with a truly horrid benchmark from which they may judge the excellence of their own examples.

Believe me Treeslicer, i am not trying to be harsh, but this is not the type of keris that most collectors take all that seriously or spend much time doing any serious assessments on. As best i can tell this keris was created with a very limited skill set as a reproduction of the well known naga sosro dhapur. Many such reproductions make an effort to present themselves with some particular level of craft. The second one you show raises the craft level somewhat for sure. As Alan has pointed out, this level of craft is indeed reflected in value. While i do not discount the possibility that this one may have seen legitimate cultural usage, perhaps in service for a wedding or some other official affair that called for a keris as part of formal dress, i see it this type of keris more as a marketplace souvenir piece not particularly worthy of serious discussion. Higher levels of craft in these reproductions carry more value, using better materials, actual gold instead of brass for the kinatah and be found in fine bejeweled dress. Those examples can be seen as "art" keris and some may find them more collectable. I am not trying to sound smug or dismissive, but i simply don't know what else there is to be said about an example such as the one you have presented to us. Many keris enthusiasts would be more likely to refer to it as a keris-like-object rather than a legitimate keris.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2018, 11:19 PM

I'd be inclined to call these things "keris", David, for the simple reason that today they fulfill the function of the keris as an item of formal dress.

Certainly others would disagree with me and have them as "keris-like objects", but to my mind this is a little bit unrealistic. Fact of the matter is that no matter how rich or how poor you are, once in while you need to get dressed up in formal gear, and for that, you need a keris. If you want to own the keris rather than borrow or rent it, you buy what you can afford.

Maybe 100 years ago, even 30 years ago, tourists did buy sharp pointy things to take home with them, but this is a very rare occurrence these days. I know dealers in Central Jawa who have not sold any type of keris or sword or dagger to any tourists in the last three years. In Bali it is very, very difficult to even find keris now.

Tourist or souvenir keris? Forget it.

Dress keris for local consumption? Yes, ongoing trade.

The things in this thread are keris, no doubt about it, but not particularly desirable ones from the point of view of a collector of keris.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2018, 08:08 PM

Treeslicer, these keris are from the same era, post-WWII, post-1950, in the case of the second keris, post-1980.

The first one might be Sumenep production, but more likely is Jogja production.

The second one is Sumenep production.

In this style of keris, from this era, there can be a lot of variation in quality. These items are handmade, craft productions, we can expect variation in quality and in execution, and this variation is reflected in value.

18th February 2018, 06:26 AM	#3
Treeslicer Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 65	Kai, here's a close up. I got this from processing the original comparison shot, but can take more photos if necessary. Note the basic differences in style from the closeups above. What's here is what I would consider a "usual" or "canonical" Naga Sasra, and any number of similar blades can be found on eBay (some of which make either of mine look like Benvenuto Cellini carved them, by comparison), as well as on Indonesian keris websites. I find the styles differ sufficiently to expect a different origin. Something that you can't see in these views is that the keris in the latest detail has a high angle edge along most of its length, like a cold chisel edge, while the peculiar one is actually quite sharp. I wish to underline again that my curiosity has nothing to do with value here, but with why this one keris looks nothing like any number of items of the same dapur taken randomly from the Internet. It's almost like whoever carved it had a description, but had never seen one before. BTW, the steel on the OP keris, while not apparently folded, isn't bad, and has a good, stiff temper to it Attached Images

18th February 2018, 04:49 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

18th February 2018, 11:19 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I'd be inclined to call these things "keris", David, for the simple reason that today they fulfill the function of the keris as an item of formal dress. Certainly others would disagree with me and have them as "keris-like objects", but to my mind this is a little bit unrealistic. Fact of the matter is that no matter how rich or how poor you are, once in while you need to get dressed up in formal gear, and for that, you need a keris. If you want to own the keris rather than borrow or rent it, you buy what you can afford. Maybe 100 years ago, even 30 years ago, tourists did buy sharp pointy things to take home with them, but this is a very rare occurrence these days. I know dealers in Central Jawa who have not sold any type of keris or sword or dagger to any tourists in the last three years. In Bali it is very, very difficult to even find keris now. Tourist or souvenir keris? Forget it. Dress keris for local consumption? Yes, ongoing trade. The things in this thread are keris, no doubt about it, but not particularly desirable ones from the point of view of a collector of keris.

18th February 2018, 08:08 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Treeslicer, these keris are from the same era, post-WWII, post-1950, in the case of the second keris, post-1980. The first one might be Sumenep production, but more likely is Jogja production. The second one is Sumenep production. In this style of keris, from this era, there can be a lot of variation in quality. These items are handmade, craft productions, we can expect variation in quality and in execution, and this variation is reflected in value.