Interesting "wallhanger"

[David]

Originally Posted by Treeslicer

I'm already well aware that it has the collectibility of a run-over cane toad, but I'm still curious in where it might have been made, anyway.

Welcome to the forum Treeslicer. I don't want to discourage you, but in all honesty i would find far more interest in the run-over cane toad.
These poorly chiseled motifs are not uncommon and frankly i don't know where any useful discussion might go on this. Many real naga blades will have chiseling along the naga body to simulate snake scales. The differences between the carvings of the Bali keris you linked to and yours are pretty far apart for comparison though.

[A. G. Maisey]

This keris might be Madura (Sumenep), but I doubt it. It is more likely that it is Jogja, pre-1980, post-1950.

In fact, I probably knew the man who made it.

[Treeslicer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This keris might be Madura (Sumenep), but I doubt it. It is more likely that it is Jogja, pre-1980, post-1950.

In fact, I probably knew the man who made it.

Thank you very, very much. Pre-1980 would explain a bit. I was also wondering if someone who ordinarily decorated something other than kerises might have been tapped to decorate one. I've seen a number of vile attempts at kerises come home in sea-bags, but not one quite like this. The naga head is closer to an outraged lizard, as I feel it should be, than to a grumpy bear or a dog, and the artisan sharpened his chisel occasionally.

[Battara]

I was going to say that this is a much later creation - I have seen a number of these in chiseled brass with this level of craftsmanship.

[Treeslicer]

Originally Posted by Battara

I was going to say that this is a much later creation - I have seen a number of these in chiseled brass with this level of craftsmanship.

I'd wondered about that, and looked at some brass examples posted online (all recent), but haven't found a match, or anything close enough to suggest an inspirational kinship. If you could post some examples or direct me to them, I'd be grateful. The closest thing that I've seen so far were some examples of motifs on pre-WW II Balinese sandstone carvings in old National Geographics.

There just doesn't seem to be a readily accessible historical reference on Indonesian kitsch. Given their long history of foreign trade and colonial rule, however, they didn't start making souvenirs just yesterday.

[Treeslicer]

Originally Posted by David

Welcome to the forum Treeslicer. I don't want to discourage you, but in all honesty i would find far more interest in the run-over cane toad.
These poorly chiseled motifs are not uncommon and frankly i don't know where any useful discussion might go on this. Many real naga blades will have chiseling along the naga body to simulate snake scales. The differences between the carvings of the Bali keris you linked to and yours are pretty far apart for comparison though.

Thanks. It actually differs quite a bit from the usual line of "X" lackadaisically up the naga body as scales, the minimal leaf motifs added for a third of the way up the blade (as well as on the ganja), a few holes drilled here-and-there for "filligree", "surface pamor" added by rubbing stainless tableware over the blade, climaxed with a head that more resembles a mastiff than a naga, that one more usually sees. As I've previously noted, this example is no masterpiece, but, IMHO, it's not any closer to the common "souvenir" tradition than it is to KBA 12.

I've further reduced the comparison photo, so it would upload. The head on the comparison Naga Sasra is better than most, more like a Doberman than a mastiff, but the quality of the rendition of Semar on the handle suggests that the carver was not a superstitious person.

[kai]

As I've previously noted, this example is no masterpiece, but, IMHO, it's not any closer to the common "souvenir" tradition than it is to KBA 12.

I've further reduced the comparison photo, so it would upload. The head on the comparison Naga Sasra is better than most, more like a Doberman than a mastiff, but the quality of the rendition of Semar on the handle suggests that the carver was not a superstitious person.

Well, hilts (and mendak) of less than stellar quality can be found all over the place.

If we concentrate on the blade, I'm afraid I don't see that much of a difference between those 2 kamardikan pieces - maybe a close-up is needed, too.

If anything, the proportions and placement of the figural carving seem to suggest somewhat better craftsmanship in the other piece...

Regards,
Kai

[Treeslicer]

Kai, here's a close up. I got this from processing the original comparison shot, but can take more photos if necessary.

Note the basic differences in style from the closeups above. What's here is what I would consider a "usual" or "canonical" Naga Sasra, and any number of similar blades can be found on eBay (some of which make either of mine look like Benvenuto Cellini carved them, by comparison), as well as on Indonesian keris websites. I find the styles differ sufficiently to expect a different origin. Something that you can't see in these views is that the keris in the latest detail has a high angle edge along most of its length, like a cold chisel edge, while the peculiar one is actually quite sharp.

I wish to underline again that my curiosity has nothing to do with value here, but with why this one keris looks nothing like any number of items of the same dapur taken randomly from the Internet. It's almost like whoever carved it had a description, but had never seen one before.

BTW, the steel on the OP keris, while not apparently folded, isn't bad, and has a good, stiff temper to it

[David]

Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

[Treeslicer]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me, but i really don't know what we are discussing here. The only thing that i find extraordinary about the originally posted keris is that when i search the internet i am hard pressed to find a worse example of a reproduction of naga sosro keris.

OK, thanks anyway. I feel virtuous for having provided the keris collecting community with a truly horrid benchmark from which they may judge the excellence of their own examples.

[David]

Originally Posted by Treeslicer

OK, thanks anyway. I feel virtuous for having provided the keris collecting community with a truly horrid benchmark from which they may judge the excellence of their own examples.

Believe me Treeslicer, i am not trying to be harsh, but this is not the type of keris that most collectors take all that seriously or spend much time doing any serious assessments on. As best i can tell this keris was created with a very limited skill set as a reproduction of the well known naga sosro dhapur. Many such reproductions make an effort to present themselves with some particular level of craft. The second one you show raises the craft level somewhat for sure. As Alan has pointed out, this level of craft is indeed reflected in value. While i do not discount the possibility that this one may have seen legitimate cultural usage, perhaps in service for a wedding or some other official affair that called for a keris as part of formal dress, i see it this type of keris more as a marketplace souvenir piece not particularly worthy of serious discussion. Higher levels of craft in these reproductions carry more value, using better materials, actual gold instead of brass for the kinatah and be found in fine bejeweled dress. Those examples can be seen as "art" keris and some may find them more collectable. I am not trying to sound smug or dismissive, but i simply don't know what else there is to be said about an example such as the one you have presented to us. Many keris enthusiasts would be more likely to refer to it as a keris-like-object rather than a legitimate keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Treeslicer, these keris are from the same era, post-WWII, post-1950, in the case of the second keris, post-1980.

The first one might be Sumenep production, but more likely is Jogja production.

The second one is Sumenep production.

In this style of keris, from this era, there can be a lot of variation in quality. These items are handmade, craft productions, we can expect variation in quality and in execution, and this variation is reflected in value.

[Treeslicer]

Originally Posted by David

I don't want to discourage you, but in all honesty i would find far more interest in the run-over cane toad.

One humbly defers to the wishes of the Moderator.

[David]

Originally Posted by Treeslicer

One humbly defers to the wishes of the Moderator.

Thank you Treeslicer. I should explain that i am a professional photographer by trade and one of my side art projects involves dead animals. I would have been extremely pleased to have come across that little fellow, especially with the added whimsy of having been caught under the line painter. LOL!

[kronckew]

Line painters just don't care. That was better than these: The last one would be cool if they added a painted on tunnel entrance for Wiley Coyote... (feel free to remove as 'off topic'