Strange ottoman handles

Ian · 12th February 2018, 07:12 AM

Ariel,

I don't think translucent horn is all that uncommon. Albino horn in particular can be quite translucent. I have a siwar with an albino horn sheath and it is possible to see the blade easily through the horn. I don't recall seeing a pink tinge to albino horn, but that may vary with the species I suppose or with treatment of the horn.

Ian.

mariusgmioc · 12th February 2018, 03:02 PM

Very interesting but from the photos is impossible to form an educated opinion.

The hilts get damaged quite easily and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility they were replaced/restored with some kind of resin/plastic... since rhino horn was not available.

ariel · 12th February 2018, 04:53 PM

Thanks to both of you. Just as I expected: different opinions.....

Ian:
I have never seen so translucent handles on Ottoman swords, and finding several in the same collection would be statistically difficult if not impossible. They are shimmering, just like mother of pearl.

Marius:

Yes, the pics are lousy, but with the available light and a thick glass between us that was the best I could do.
I have bigger pics, but they exceed the limit for posting. If anyone can put them on, I shall be glad to e-mail the pics, just give me the address.

Also, the only definitely original horn handle has a properly wide hole for the knot cord , but almost all of the "pearly" ones have minuscule holes; no cord would pass through them. Another problem is with the rivets: there usually were 2-3 rivets on the grip. Here we see one on the grip, and another on the head ( in some), the rightmost kilij has no rivets whatsoever, just the knot cord one, also quite thin.
The more I look , the more I wonder: one strange feature after another...

kronckew · 12th February 2018, 06:10 PM

I have no idea what this animal is, but it's got distinctly pink horns

edited: it's a Saiga antelope from Kazakhstan. Used to be found further west and south into the Caucasian mountains...protected now. They moult twice a year, summer coat is light brown & winter almost white.

From wiki: Only males possess horns. These horns, thick and slightly translucent, are wax-coloured. (i thought 'wax' was not a colour)

ariel · 12th February 2018, 09:06 PM

The similarity of the material and the riveting make me believe that most if not all handles were made at the same time and in the same shop.

YataganMan · 13th February 2018, 09:22 AM

Re Strange handles on Turkish Kiliches that are on display in Milan museum,I wish to advise these kiliches were produced in millions in 5 -6 centuries from 135o to late 1900s and some were fitted with rhino horns but most of them needed a regular supply that was easy to obtain.No rhino population in the world could could meet such a huge demand.Therefore the supplies came from RAMS which the Turks consumed extensively .These animals were raised in the plains and the slopes of north noth eastern Turkey(Erzurum, Kars area ).When fitted to swords They were all same color almost translucent light yellowish cream but in time sun shine, sweat and dirt changed this color to pink,red brown and dark brown. Regarding the absence of the rivets in late 1890-1900 + some makers used hidden rivets they were under the side plates, thıs is an indication of date of manufacture,Regards
Yataganman

Ian · 13th February 2018, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The similarity of the material and the riveting make me believe that most if not all handles were made at the same time and in the same shop.

Sounds highly likely given the collection of features peculiar to most of these.

ariel · 14th February 2018, 11:50 AM

YataganMan:
Can you please show examples of the ram handles you describe: translucent, pink, shimmering?
If rams became the main source of material and kilijes were made in millions, finding a couple or two should not be a problem for you.
Thanks.

12th February 2018, 06:10 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	I have no idea what this animal is, but it's got distinctly pink horns edited: it's a Saiga antelope from Kazakhstan. Used to be found further west and south into the Caucasian mountains...protected now. They moult twice a year, summer coat is light brown & winter almost white. From wiki: Only males possess horns. These horns, thick and slightly translucent, are wax-coloured. (i thought 'wax' was not a colour) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 12th February 2018 at 06:21 PM.

12th February 2018, 07:12 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Ariel, I don't think translucent horn is all that uncommon. Albino horn in particular can be quite translucent. I have a siwar with an albino horn sheath and it is possible to see the blade easily through the horn. I don't recall seeing a pink tinge to albino horn, but that may vary with the species I suppose or with treatment of the horn. Ian.

12th February 2018, 03:02 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Very interesting but from the photos is impossible to form an educated opinion. The hilts get damaged quite easily and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility they were replaced/restored with some kind of resin/plastic... since rhino horn was not available.

12th February 2018, 04:53 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks to both of you. Just as I expected: different opinions..... Ian: I have never seen so translucent handles on Ottoman swords, and finding several in the same collection would be statistically difficult if not impossible. They are shimmering, just like mother of pearl. Marius: Yes, the pics are lousy, but with the available light and a thick glass between us that was the best I could do. I have bigger pics, but they exceed the limit for posting. If anyone can put them on, I shall be glad to e-mail the pics, just give me the address. Also, the only definitely original horn handle has a properly wide hole for the knot cord , but almost all of the "pearly" ones have minuscule holes; no cord would pass through them. Another problem is with the rivets: there usually were 2-3 rivets on the grip. Here we see one on the grip, and another on the head ( in some), the rightmost kilij has no rivets whatsoever, just the knot cord one, also quite thin. The more I look , the more I wonder: one strange feature after another...

12th February 2018, 09:06 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The similarity of the material and the riveting make me believe that most if not all handles were made at the same time and in the same shop.

13th February 2018, 09:22 AM	#6
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	Re Strange handles on Turkish Kiliches that are on display in Milan museum,I wish to advise these kiliches were produced in millions in 5 -6 centuries from 135o to late 1900s and some were fitted with rhino horns but most of them needed a regular supply that was easy to obtain.No rhino population in the world could could meet such a huge demand.Therefore the supplies came from RAMS which the Turks consumed extensively .These animals were raised in the plains and the slopes of north noth eastern Turkey(Erzurum, Kars area ).When fitted to swords They were all same color almost translucent light yellowish cream but in time sun shine, sweat and dirt changed this color to pink,red brown and dark brown. Regarding the absence of the rivets in late 1890-1900 + some makers used hidden rivets they were under the side plates, thıs is an indication of date of manufacture,Regards Yataganman

14th February 2018, 11:50 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	YataganMan: Can you please show examples of the ram handles you describe: translucent, pink, shimmering? If rams became the main source of material and kilijes were made in millions, finding a couple or two should not be a problem for you. Thanks.