Early Hungarian Sabre

fernando · 28th January 2018, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilUK

I agree with Victrix and would suggest that the motto is abbreviated for:
VINCERE AUT MORI PRO HUNGARIA - Conquer or Die for Hungary.
Neil

Just as said, Neil. It took me some time to put up my post !

mariusgmioc · 28th January 2018, 12:50 PM

To me, this looks clearly like a Solingen blade... possibly engraved in Hungary. Pretty much the same "Hungarian" blade (made in Solingen) like the one in the Arabian Shamshir in the Ethnographic section:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17415

As far as I know there were NO blade making centers in Hungary and ALL the "Hungarian" blades were made in Solingen or other places in Germany and Austria. As far as I know... but that doesn't stretch too far.

Does anybody know of any proof there were blade making centers in Hungary?

Does anybody know of a Hungarian swordsmith?

Victrix · 28th January 2018, 03:28 PM

I think the production of swordblades in Europe until the 19thC was concentrated to a relatively small number of centres since the iron age and possibly even earlier. It was ardous and expensive to transport rocks and minerals over long distances. Metallurgic knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret. Trades were tightly controlled monopolies by law. Swordblades and weapons were easily imported to Hungary via river Danube from Passau, across land from Styria, and across the Adriatic from Northern Italy to Dalmatia. There were cutlers and furbishers locally to finish the goods to domestic uses and tastes.

Hungary (within its current borders at least) is a relatively flat country and open to invasions. It was devastated in the Ottoman wars with a noticeable effect on demographics. Buda was conquered by the Ottomans twice in 1526 and 1529 and occupied in 1541 which completely changed the demographics of the city. It was taken from the Ottomans only in 1686 by the Holy League and the rest of Hungary regained its independence only in 1718. It took a long time to recover from the devastation of war and parts of the country had to be resettled with foreign settlers from Western Europe.

Victrix · 28th January 2018, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

To me, this looks clearly like a Solingen blade... possibly engraved in Hungary. Pretty much the same "Hungarian" blade (made in Solingen) like the one in the Arabian Shamshir in the Ethnographic section:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17415

As far as I know there were NO blade making centers in Hungary and ALL the "Hungarian" blades were made in Solingen or other places in Germany and Austria. As far as I know... but that doesn't stretch too far.

Does anybody know of any proof there were blade making centers in Hungary?

Does anybody know of a Hungarian swordsmith?

Just because we don’t know of Hungarian swordsmiths doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. In my previous post I tried to explain that Hungary probably doesn’t have a competitive advantage in blade production compared to other locations rich in iron ore and steel etc so perhaps smarter to import sword blades. Also I tried to explain how Hungary was misfortunate to be ravaged by near constant warfare for not decades but CENTURIES. Most of Hungary was occupied by the Ottomans and virtually ceased to exist. It’s quite difficult to maintain manufacturing traditions under these circumstances. It seems there were swordsmiths in Hungary but unlikely these could rival peers in Solingen, Passau, Toledo, Damascus, etc: http://www.nemzetijelkepek.hu/onkorm...linka_en.shtml as an example

mariusgmioc · 29th January 2018, 09:43 PM

Yes, there were swordsmiths in Hungary, but were they producing their own blades or were simply making the swords with foreign blades?!

So I reformulate my question:

Does anybody know about the existence in the 16-19 centuries of Hungarian BLADEsmiths?!

fernando · 30th January 2018, 10:58 AM

That there are descriptions out there referencing XVI century Hungarian blades mounted with Ottoman hilts later in the XVIII century, it is a fact. Whether such descriptions are deceiving, may be another fact.
Marius you have a PM.

mariusgmioc · 30th January 2018, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

That there are descriptions out there referencing XVI century Hungarian blades mounted with Ottoman hilts later in the XVIII century, it is a fact. Whether such descriptions are deceiving, may be another fact.
Marius you have a PM.

Yes, I know but...

"Hungarian" blades were called "Hungarian" because either were imported by the Ottomans from Hungary, or because they were engraved & sometimes mounted in Hungary.

It is somehow similar to how wootz has become known as "Damascus steel" but there is no single evidence that a even a single wootz blade was entirely made in Damascus... and almost all of them came from Persia with a few comming from India.

Has anybody seen a blade punched with a Hungarian smith's mark?!

Is there any evidence that a Hungarian smith mark ever existed?!

Victrix · 30th January 2018, 05:58 PM

In this particular case I would call it Hungarian only because it’s written ”Hungaria” on it. I don’t think it was made in Hungary or even intended to be used there. I never saw such a blade mounted on a Hungarian sabre used locally and would love to see one. Also when I see very patriotic things I think of nationalism which was arguably predominantly a 19thC thing (the Revolutions of 1848, German unification, etc) spilling into the 20thC. My impression is that people in the 17thC didn’t think in terms of nation states but fought for their God/king/commander/city/comrades/family/money. So when I see blades with very nationalistic slogans I think of 19thC. I would’t be surprised if these blades were produced in Solingen and marketed as ”Hungarian” to peoples who admired the fighting abilities of the Hungarian hussar and wanted to buy whatever equipment they were believed to have used.

We had a similar discussion about Portuguese swords, I believe. Is a sword produced in Spain and then bought and used in Portugal a Portuguese sword? Is a sword made in Solingen in Spanish style and then bought and used in Spain a Spanish sword?

28th January 2018, 03:28 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I think the production of swordblades in Europe until the 19thC was concentrated to a relatively small number of centres since the iron age and possibly even earlier. It was ardous and expensive to transport rocks and minerals over long distances. Metallurgic knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret. Trades were tightly controlled monopolies by law. Swordblades and weapons were easily imported to Hungary via river Danube from Passau, across land from Styria, and across the Adriatic from Northern Italy to Dalmatia. There were cutlers and furbishers locally to finish the goods to domestic uses and tastes. Hungary (within its current borders at least) is a relatively flat country and open to invasions. It was devastated in the Ottoman wars with a noticeable effect on demographics. Buda was conquered by the Ottomans twice in 1526 and 1529 and occupied in 1541 which completely changed the demographics of the city. It was taken from the Ottomans only in 1686 by the Holy League and the rest of Hungary regained its independence only in 1718. It took a long time to recover from the devastation of war and parts of the country had to be resettled with foreign settlers from Western Europe. Last edited by Victrix; 28th January 2018 at 03:54 PM.

28th January 2018, 12:50 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	To me, this looks clearly like a Solingen blade... possibly engraved in Hungary. Pretty much the same "Hungarian" blade (made in Solingen) like the one in the Arabian Shamshir in the Ethnographic section: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17415 As far as I know there were NO blade making centers in Hungary and ALL the "Hungarian" blades were made in Solingen or other places in Germany and Austria. As far as I know... but that doesn't stretch too far. Does anybody know of any proof there were blade making centers in Hungary? Does anybody know of a Hungarian swordsmith?

29th January 2018, 09:43 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Yes, there were swordsmiths in Hungary, but were they producing their own blades or were simply making the swords with foreign blades?! So I reformulate my question: Does anybody know about the existence in the 16-19 centuries of Hungarian BLADEsmiths?!

30th January 2018, 10:58 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That there are descriptions out there referencing XVI century Hungarian blades mounted with Ottoman hilts later in the XVIII century, it is a fact. Whether such descriptions are deceiving, may be another fact. Marius you have a PM.

30th January 2018, 05:58 PM	#8
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	In this particular case I would call it Hungarian only because it’s written ”Hungaria” on it. I don’t think it was made in Hungary or even intended to be used there. I never saw such a blade mounted on a Hungarian sabre used locally and would love to see one. Also when I see very patriotic things I think of nationalism which was arguably predominantly a 19thC thing (the Revolutions of 1848, German unification, etc) spilling into the 20thC. My impression is that people in the 17thC didn’t think in terms of nation states but fought for their God/king/commander/city/comrades/family/money. So when I see blades with very nationalistic slogans I think of 19thC. I would’t be surprised if these blades were produced in Solingen and marketed as ”Hungarian” to peoples who admired the fighting abilities of the Hungarian hussar and wanted to buy whatever equipment they were believed to have used. We had a similar discussion about Portuguese swords, I believe. Is a sword produced in Spain and then bought and used in Portugal a Portuguese sword? Is a sword made in Solingen in Spanish style and then bought and used in Spain a Spanish sword?