Early Hungarian Sabre

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

VINCER AUT MO HUNGARIA; roughly translated from Latin as 'Victory for My Hungary'.

Say, wouldn't your English version be VICTORIA HUNGARIAE MEAE?

A Polish saber in my collection is inscribed VINCERE AUT MORI and I've seen others with the same inscription including the country name ...POLONIA. Conquer or die for Poland, in such case.

[Victrix]

Latin was very popular in Hungary and Poland as these are Roman Catholic countries where it’s often still used in church service. In addition, Hungary was part of the Roman Empire when it was first part of the Province of Illyricum and later Pannonia. So you can find remains from this time in Hungary which has an absolutely fascinating history. It’s believed that Marcus Aurelius wrote at least part of his book Meditations in Aquincum (near Budapest) when fighting barbarians in the area.

Latin in these countries also had a renewed following in the classicist revival in the 19thC. Vincere aut mori (to win or die) was another motto common on Hungarian but also Polish sabre blades. Sabres had an almost cult like following in Poland where many of them are also engraved with different patriotic texts. Yes Polonia is Latin for Poland.

[NeilUK]

I agree with Victrix and would suggest that the motto is abbreviated for:
VINCERE AUT MORI PRO HUNGARIA - Conquer or Die for Hungary.
Neil

[fernando]

Originally Posted by NeilUK

I agree with Victrix and would suggest that the motto is abbreviated for:
VINCERE AUT MORI PRO HUNGARIA - Conquer or Die for Hungary.
Neil

Just as said, Neil. It took me some time to put up my post !

[mariusgmioc]

To me, this looks clearly like a Solingen blade... possibly engraved in Hungary. Pretty much the same "Hungarian" blade (made in Solingen) like the one in the Arabian Shamshir in the Ethnographic section:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17415

As far as I know there were NO blade making centers in Hungary and ALL the "Hungarian" blades were made in Solingen or other places in Germany and Austria. As far as I know... but that doesn't stretch too far.

Does anybody know of any proof there were blade making centers in Hungary?

Does anybody know of a Hungarian swordsmith?

[Victrix]

I think the production of swordblades in Europe until the 19thC was concentrated to a relatively small number of centres since the iron age and possibly even earlier. It was ardous and expensive to transport rocks and minerals over long distances. Metallurgic knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret. Trades were tightly controlled monopolies by law. Swordblades and weapons were easily imported to Hungary via river Danube from Passau, across land from Styria, and across the Adriatic from Northern Italy to Dalmatia. There were cutlers and furbishers locally to finish the goods to domestic uses and tastes.

Hungary (within its current borders at least) is a relatively flat country and open to invasions. It was devastated in the Ottoman wars with a noticeable effect on demographics. Buda was conquered by the Ottomans twice in 1526 and 1529 and occupied in 1541 which completely changed the demographics of the city. It was taken from the Ottomans only in 1686 by the Holy League and the rest of Hungary regained its independence only in 1718. It took a long time to recover from the devastation of war and parts of the country had to be resettled with foreign settlers from Western Europe.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

To me, this looks clearly like a Solingen blade... possibly engraved in Hungary. Pretty much the same "Hungarian" blade (made in Solingen) like the one in the Arabian Shamshir in the Ethnographic section:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17415

As far as I know there were NO blade making centers in Hungary and ALL the "Hungarian" blades were made in Solingen or other places in Germany and Austria. As far as I know... but that doesn't stretch too far.

Does anybody know of any proof there were blade making centers in Hungary?

Does anybody know of a Hungarian swordsmith?

Just because we don’t know of Hungarian swordsmiths doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. In my previous post I tried to explain that Hungary probably doesn’t have a competitive advantage in blade production compared to other locations rich in iron ore and steel etc so perhaps smarter to import sword blades. Also I tried to explain how Hungary was misfortunate to be ravaged by near constant warfare for not decades but CENTURIES. Most of Hungary was occupied by the Ottomans and virtually ceased to exist. It’s quite difficult to maintain manufacturing traditions under these circumstances. It seems there were swordsmiths in Hungary but unlikely these could rival peers in Solingen, Passau, Toledo, Damascus, etc: http://www.nemzetijelkepek.hu/onkorm...linka_en.shtml as an example

[mariusgmioc]

Yes, there were swordsmiths in Hungary, but were they producing their own blades or were simply making the swords with foreign blades?!

So I reformulate my question:

Does anybody know about the existence in the 16-19 centuries of Hungarian BLADEsmiths?!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Latin was very popular in Hungary and Poland as these are Roman Catholic countries where it’s often still used in church service.

Latin in these countries also had a renewed following in the classicist revival in the 19thC.

The popular use of religious/patriotic slogans in Latin on sword blades predates the 19th cent. revival. You see this going all the way back into the 17th cent.

As has been pointed out in previous posts, the blade in question was not necessarily made in either Poland or Hungary. And it's been mentioned that manufacture of sword blades for the mass market tended to be centered in a few areas, with export sales to other regions and countries. Solingen was of course a major location, and it was in a region that was heavily affected by the struggles and after-effects of the Protestant Reformation. As you may recall, Martin Luther and contemporaries emphasized contemporary, local idiom (German) in preference to Latin for religious tracts and the conduct of church services.

Terje Norheim, in the article "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen" ( Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger XVI ) discusses the badly written Latin inscriptions on a saber blade thought to be of Dutch or German manufacture, 17th cent.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

The popular use of religious/patriotic slogans in Latin on sword blades predates the 19th cent. revival. You see this going all the way back into the 17th cent.

As has been pointed out in previous posts, the blade in question was not necessarily made in either Poland or Hungary. And it's been mentioned that manufacture of sword blades for the mass market tended to be centered in a few areas, with export sales to other regions and countries. Solingen was of course a major location, and it was in a region that was heavily affected by the struggles and after-effects of the Protestant Reformation. As you may recall, Martin Luther and contemporaries emphasized contemporary, local idiom (German) in preference to Latin for religious tracts and the conduct of church services.

Terje Norheim, in the article "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen" ( Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger XVI ) discusses the badly written Latin inscriptions on a saber blade thought to be of Dutch or German manufacture, 17th cent.

Not sure that I understand your point/points?

[Richard G]

I think the lion is actually meant to be 'couchant' or possibly 'dormant' (lying or sleeping). Either way it is a heraldic device that represents peaceful intent, but ferocity and power if that intent is thwarted. Sometimes it is said to represent almost the opposite i.e. the ability of the device holder to calm such power and ferocity by some form of saintliness. I would guess in this case it is the former. It does not need to represent any particular institution or family, altho' of course, it could do.
Best wishes
Richard

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

Say, wouldn't your English version be VICTORIA HUNGARIAE MEAE?

A Polish saber in my collection is inscribed VINCERE AUT MORI and I've seen others with the same inscription including the country name ...POLONIA. Conquer or die for Poland, in such case.

Well, i was selling this "at cost price"; only caring to figure out the inscription contents, including misspellings and mistranslations.
The wording in the blade, as quoted, was brought from a source in that the interpreter, showing a 19th c. Arabian shamshir mounted with a Hungarian blade from the 1700s, gave it such translation, mentioning that it was a rough one ... maybe then too rough though.
In any case the construction of the phrase in both blades appears to have been both condensed and expanded, as arranged by the smith to give it a nationalist touch, as an approach to "Win or die for Hungary".

Actually the motto VINCERE AUT MORI, more preciously expressed as AUT VINCERE AUT MORI, would be a pledge familiar to VICTORIA AUT MORS (Victory or death) a motto seen in Heraldry.
I wounder whether these Latin mottos were a product of 'contemporary' fashion that not originated in early days, like by Romans.

And by the way, in my lingo we write Polonia and Hungria.


.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Actually the motto VINCERE AUT MORI, more preciously expressed as AUT VINCERE AUT MORI,




.

Thanks, Fernando, for clarifying with the complete phrase.