an old keris tok chu..but is it from the master?

alexish · 9th January 2018, 10:23 PM

I actually got this idea from a keris dealer in Singapore (I don't want to name him). We were discussing about Tok Chu keris together with some other collectors/customers, and one of them brought up the subject of magnetism. Then we tried to test some old Tok Chu keris and other kerises with a compass. It appeared that the old Tok Chu kerises had less magnetsim compared to other kerises. Why don't you test and tell me the result?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Many old keris i have collected over the years have displayed weak magnetic fields when brought near a compass. Then i touch them to a powerful magnet and their magnetic fields are instantly revitalized and strong again. I have some serious doubts that this method would be conclusive to determining whether a blade was actually made by Tok Chu or not.
Green, from the looks of your blade i would image it is either quite a bit older than early 20th century or it was intentionally aged. But the wear looks genuine. I'm not sure that actual age will confirm it to be definitely made by Tok Chu either. With the stories of Tok Chu we are dealing a lot with myth and legend. I am sure there are truths that stand behind the legend, but i am afraid that getting to them at this point in time can be quite difficult. The best thing you can probably do is ask yourself, does this look like the work of a renown and legendary keris master. Compare it to accepted Tok Chu keris of a similar form and make your own judgement. Though i would be curious what your keris ahli friends have to say on the matter.

But at least the magnetic compass method may confirm whether the keris is genuinely old or artificially aged.

David · 9th January 2018, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

But at least the magnetic compass method may confirm whether the keris is genuinely old or artificially aged.

Not really. There is nothing that confirms that newly made keris have a greater magnetic field than older keris. I always charge my new keris by touching them to a powerful magnet regardless of their age. I don't believe anyone has done study that shows that keris begin life with a stronger magnetic charge and lose it over time.

alexish · 10th January 2018, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Not really. There is nothing that confirms that newly made keris have a greater magnetic field than older keris. I always charge my new keris by touching them to a powerful magnet regardless of their age. I don't believe anyone has done study that shows that keris begin life with a stronger magnetic charge and lose it over time.

What is the reason that you charge your new keris with a powerful magnet. Is there a mystical reason, or does it help to preserve the blade?

David · 10th January 2018, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

What is the reason that you charge your new keris with a powerful magnet. Is there a mystical reason, or does it help to preserve the blade?

If i told you i'd have to kill you.

But seriously, my reasons are purely personal. If they are mystical it is my own mystique, nit something derived from any arcane script or knowledge. As far as i know it serves no practical purpose such as blade preservation, but then, you never know.

Rick · 10th January 2018, 03:13 AM

Polar alignment.

mariusgmioc · 10th January 2018, 01:54 PM

Hello gentlemen,

While I didn't do any study on the magnetic properties of the keris, I want to highlight that ANY ferous object has some degree of magnetism as it is directly generated by Earth's own magnetic field. You can test this by aproaching steel spoons, scisors, knives, watches, etc. to a compass.

Moreover, most mechanical processing mechanisms, whether through plastic deformation or throgh chip removing, produce additional magnetization of the ferrous materials.

Last, but not least, the magnetic properties of a metal are greatly influenced by its composition and crystalline structure.

So I do not believe that magnetic properties of a keris can be considered as an indicator of age or quality, unless they are scientifically assesed.

David · 10th January 2018, 03:28 PM

Yes Marius, of course all iron is magnetic, but it can still exhibit a weak magnetic field (polarization). So many keris that i have personally handled only move the compass needle just slightly when approaching a compass. Being magnetic and being magnetized are two different things though. By applying a powerful magnet to the keris the blade is magnetized and now has a strong active north/south polarization. The blade become a magnet itself (it can now pick up a steel pin for instance).
Only Alexish made the suggestion that this might be used to judge the age of the blade, an idea he got from a dealer in Singapore. Dealers say a lot of things. I think most of us agree that this is unlikely.

10th January 2018, 03:13 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Polar alignment.

10th January 2018, 01:54 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hello gentlemen, While I didn't do any study on the magnetic properties of the keris, I want to highlight that ANY ferous object has some degree of magnetism as it is directly generated by Earth's own magnetic field. You can test this by aproaching steel spoons, scisors, knives, watches, etc. to a compass. Moreover, most mechanical processing mechanisms, whether through plastic deformation or throgh chip removing, produce additional magnetization of the ferrous materials. Last, but not least, the magnetic properties of a metal are greatly influenced by its composition and crystalline structure. So I do not believe that magnetic properties of a keris can be considered as an indicator of age or quality, unless they are scientifically assesed.

10th January 2018, 03:28 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Yes Marius, of course all iron is magnetic, but it can still exhibit a weak magnetic field (polarization). So many keris that i have personally handled only move the compass needle just slightly when approaching a compass. Being magnetic and being magnetized are two different things though. By applying a powerful magnet to the keris the blade is magnetized and now has a strong active north/south polarization. The blade become a magnet itself (it can now pick up a steel pin for instance). Only Alexish made the suggestion that this might be used to judge the age of the blade, an idea he got from a dealer in Singapore. Dealers say a lot of things. I think most of us agree that this is unlikely.