bugis keris

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

there are several versions of it, such as .konon kris making or weapons in that era is a kind of guns berpamor, which one of them is Ussu iron from Luwu which contain lots of meteorite and nickel, so that Luwu iron (ussu) become material the main prestige of making in the manufacture of kris, in the book Encyclopedia Keris mentioned that the iron Luwu market known as Bessi Pamorro, until the year 1920 is still found in the market of Salatiga with perkilo price equivalent to 50 kg of rice

Hi LP. Yes, i believe that many, if not most of us are aware of pamor Luwu and it's source from Sulawesi. It was a highly valued source of iron for a good period of time and does indeed seem to have been used in the forging of old Javanese keris. However, this is a material, not a forged and finished keris. Iron from Luwu was well known to have a relatively high nickel content but my understanding was that it was entirely terrestrial. Can you point to any references that maintain such ore also contained "lots of meteorite"?
I'm afraid i do not see a particularly old keris in your second example, but perhaps we need to see more images. Can you show us an image that shows this entire blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

The iron deposits at Luwu are laterite ores.

In the 1980's my understanding is that there was a small commercial smelting operation going on at Luwu. I was told this by Panembahan Harjonegoro (alm.) who gave me a piece of this commercially refined nickel.

The current situation in Luwu can be understood by following these links:-

http://www.oxis.org/theses/misol-2103.pdf

https://www.reuters.com/article/indo...0R42WI20140904

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN19P1Q5

[Jean]

Hello La Pagaru,
Like many kris collectors I deeply appreciate the Bugis krisses for their strong "character", but I have difficulties to identify the pamor pattern of the Bugis blades although I have a copy of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" to which you apparently contributed?
For instance how would you appraise the pamor pattern of the 2 Bugis blades attached? According to the reference book the pamor pattern of the first blade is Tebba Bunga (equivalent to Lar Gangsir in Java).
Regards

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello La Pagaru,
Like many kris collectors I deeply appreciate the Bugis krisses for their strong "character", but I have difficulties to identify the pamor pattern of the Bugis blades although I have a copy of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" to which you apparently contributed?
For instance how would you appraise the pamor pattern of the 2 Bugis blades attached? According to the reference book the pamor pattern of the first blade is Tebba Bunga (equivalent to Lar Gangsir in Java).
Regards

greetings, the kris you show has a pamor which here we call it la kurissi daung kaluku (coconut leaves) interspersed with the pamor of Java people call it adeg while in bugis call it daung ase (rice leaf), while the second keris we call pamornya is wunga ase (rice flower) , kris kris you are very beautiful, I am sometimes stunned to remember the keris of friends outside the country is a very rare bugis keris, I hope there will be a bugis keris exhibition especially in europe, especially dutch

Best regrads
Lp

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by David

Hi LP. Yes, i believe that many, if not most of us are aware of pamor Luwu and it's source from Sulawesi. It was a highly valued source of iron for a good period of time and does indeed seem to have been used in the forging of old Javanese keris. However, this is a material, not a forged and finished keris. Iron from Luwu was well known to have a relatively high nickel content but my understanding was that it was entirely terrestrial. Can you point to any references that maintain such ore also contained "lots of meteorite"?
I'm afraid i do not see a particularly old keris in your second example, but perhaps we need to see more images. Can you show us an image that shows this entire blade?

Dear david

that is bugis david, here still sometimes we get heirlooms from the direct owners that they can from the heritage of their ancestors, they sometimes do not like if part of the shell fall out or dull so jadang they sharpen and sharpen it, though the blade is very well maintained because here we have own way different from jawa in taking care of kris, using warangan, we here only use lime to care for our heirloom and just perfume from incense smoke,

Best regrads
LP

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

Dear david

that is bugis david, here still sometimes we get heirlooms from the direct owners that they can from the heritage of their ancestors, they sometimes do not like if part of the shell fall out or dull so jadang they sharpen and sharpen it, though the blade is very well maintained because here we have own way different from jawa in taking care of kris, using warangan, we here only use lime to care for our heirloom and just perfume from incense smoke,

Best regrads
LP

Thanks for finally responding to my post LP, but you did not really address most of my questions, including clarification about your remark that pamor Luwa contains a "lot of meteorite" and my request that you show a complete image of the last blade you posted. I am aware of the differences in maintenance practices between Jawa and Bugis cultures, but there is more about this last blade you posted than its good condition that makes be suspect it is a contemporary blade.

[A. G. Maisey]

Hi La Pagaru,

I would have posted this question earlier, but at present I am away from home and moving around, so net access + time has been a bit restricted.

I refer to this statement of yours:-

"--- a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura---"

can you please explain for us precisely what it is that makes the Bugis forge process much more difficult than the forge process in Jawa and Madura.

I am very familiar with Javanese forge processes, both archaic and modern, and I am capable of understanding technical explanations of forge work, and of the carving work that follows the production of the forging.

Thank you for your consideration.

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Hi La Pagaru,

I would have posted this question earlier, but at present I am away from home and moving around, so net access + time has been a bit restricted.

I refer to this statement of yours:-

"--- a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura---"

can you please explain for us precisely what it is that makes the Bugis forge process much more difficult than the forge process in Jawa and Madura.

I am very familiar with Javanese forge processes, both archaic and modern, and I am capable of understanding technical explanations of forge work, and of the carving work that follows the production of the forging.

Thank you for your consideration.

Dear mr iG maisy

of course, we call it hanging steel, I can not explain it in more detail, our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java, you would not believe me if I say that Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us, in our history recorded in our ancient records, that the king majapahit willing to marry his son with king luwu only for pamor and pamor techniques that are owned luwu or sulawesi

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response La Pagaru.

So, you do not know anything at all about the forging process that your smiths use except that some unidentified people have declared that it is much more difficult than the methods used in Jawa and other places?

Is this so?

When you are able to answer my question I will be very interested in just what these extreme difficulties faced by your smiths are.

I do understand that my name might be quite difficult for some non-native speakers of English to write, however, I would truly appreciate your courtesy in trying your best to copy the form of my name that I use in this forum:-

A. G. Maisey

If this is too difficult to remember, may I suggest that you copy and paste?

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

of course, we call it hanging steel, I can not explain it in more detail, our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java, you would not believe me if I say that Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us, in our history recorded in our ancient records, that the king majapahit willing to marry his son with king luwu only for pamor and pamor techniques that are owned luwu or sulawesi

I would love to see such claims presented as substantiated facts when possible Andi. I would not be surprised if a Mojopahit king may have seen fit to create a marriage bond in order to obtain a direct line to the raw materials that mines in Luwu could provide. As i stated before, we are mostly all aware here of pamor Luwu and that it was prized in Jawa many years ago. But this is about resources and materials, not forging techniques. The Bugis did not teach that empus of Jawa how to forge. They were merely a source for some of the raw materials that skilled empus in Jawa then turned into fine keris. If you are going to make controversial statements like "our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java" or "Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us" you had better have something more than merely empty statements to back that up. Just saying something is so over and over again does not make it so.

[La Pagaru]

My apologies

I want to ask a little question here, is there among the masters in Java who use the technique of attaching steel to the pamor blade, which I mean not by clamping steel in the middle of prestige. but actually sticking the steel on the pamor blade that has been so, madura and jawa master have tried several times to imitate doing it, but they do it with the correct technique because I'm sure they do not know it, they put it in a way to weld it, but in bugis technique paste the steel with mengetehui steel hot spots that can adhere strongly on the blades, sorry friends and friends some friends in Java who have seen it first know it including ganjawulung pakbo you may know, and you should know that the iron in the by oxis has oblique sketches that are much older than those found in java, in the era of majapahit they not only import raw materials, but also bring their masters, I apologize for any mention of the name, and the matter of my english language still wearing google translete, and I did not mean to do that