Meteoric Blades on Bronze Age Weapons

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2017, 08:15 PM

The first thing we do know for sure is that iron working in Egypt began with the wide availability of iron smelting technology around 600BC.

Iron working in Anatolia began hundreds of years earlier. By about 1400 BC there was ongoing production of iron artifacts by the Hittites.

The second thing we do know for sure is that Rameses II (?) led an army of tens of thousands ---- 10K, 20K, 30K ? --- against the Hittites in the second half of the 1200's BC. This resulted in a battle at Qadesh.

The Egyptians were a major technologically advanced power, so were the Hittites, they were evenly matched and they both claimed that they won, another way of thinking about Qadesh is that they both lost.

In any case, what it boils down to is this:- prior to Qadesh the Hittites had been an ongoing problem for the Egyptians, Qadesh did not settle things immediately, and there was further aggravation on both sides after Qadesh, but 15 or 20 years after Qadesh the Egyptians and the Hittites had a sit-down and agreed a treaty of peace. My understanding is that a modern copy of this treaty is in the headquarters of the UN in New York. It is believed to be the first international peace treaty.

Peace Treaties do not come into existence in the absence of diplomacy. Diplomacy also thrives in the lead up to wars. Ancient leaders were no more stupid than modern leaders:- nobody wants war if it can be avoided.

A superficial time line looks like this:-

pre-1500BC iron working technology begins in Anatolia, the Hittite People inhabit Anatolia

1400BC iron working technology used by Hittite nation for manufacture of weapons

1300 to 1200BC ongoing Egyptian and Hittite conflicts culminating in the Battle of Qadesh, which ultimately generates the world's first peace treaty.

Interestingly King Tutankhamen died in about 1300BC.

We cannot claim to know the exact circumstances under which KT got hold of his dagger, but if we can recall our high school history lessons we do have virtually irrefutable evidence for exactly where that dagger blade came from.

David · 18th December 2017, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Peace Treaties do not come into existence in the absence of diplomacy. Diplomacy also thrives in the lead up to wars. Ancient leaders were no more stupid than modern leaders:- nobody wants war if it can be avoided.

We cannot claim to know the exact circumstances under which KT got hold of his dagger, but if we can recall our high school history lessons we do have virtually irrefutable evidence for exactly where that dagger blade came from.

Certainly some diplomacy was at work in the day of Ramses II before this peace treaty went into effect. This was a result of the Battle of Qadesh, so the two great powers already were at war. But i cannot find much, if any diplomacy between Hittites and the Eqyptians before this time.
There is plenty of records of correspondences between Egypt and other smaller powers in the area, especially with the Mitanni kingdom who were once rivals of Egypt, but joined forces with them for protection from the Hittites. There is apparently even actual clay tablet correspondence between the King of Mitanni and King Tut's grandfather, Amenhoep III that mentions a dagger sent to the Pharaoh that was booty from the Hittites. Who knows, perhaps this is the very dagger of our current conversation that was left to King Tut from his grandfather and eventual entombed with the boy king when he died.
"We also know that iron dagger blades were important enough to be mentioned in diplomatic correspondence. The best-known example is a letter from King Tushratta of Mitanni (today in northern Iraq and Syria) detailing a dowry of his daughter who was to be sent as a bride to Tutankhamun’s grandfather, King Amenhotep III. This letter intriguingly refers to a dagger blade of “habalkinu”, a poorly documented word derived from the ancient Hittite language that some linguists have translated as “steel”."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7066216.html

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2017, 04:01 AM

These extended exchanges on the Ancient World are really taxing my memory. I am not a scholar of ancient history, I do not have time to do a crash course in Wiki history, so I am constrained to writing from my fractured remembrances of high school history and just plain old general knowledge.

If I get a few dates and numbers wrong, and I fail to spell names correctly, you can put it down to my aging memory.

OK.

The Battle of Qadesh is probably the best documented battle of the ancient world, we know why it occurred, when it occurred, the outcomes, and the consequences.

In the Ancient World there was a group of countries that historians refer to as the "Great Powers Club", this "club" was made up of the major powers in The Levant, Mesopotamia and Anatolia, these powers were Egyptian Empire, Hittite Empire, Babylon, Assyria and Mitani.

The balance of power between the members of this "Club" went through cycles of change, they all wanted to expand their areas of influence and build their empires. A system of exchange of royal gifts developed, whereby the rulers would exchange gifts of things over which they had control. One of these gifts was women, who were from the royal line of one ruler, given as a wife to another ruler. Egyptian rulers refused to give women of their royal line to other rulers because royal Egyptian women were required as wives for their own Royal Egyptian brothers and other close relatives. However, the Egyptian Rulers were more than agreeable to accepting as wives the women from royal lines of other rulers.

This exchange of royal gifts was a part of diplomacy that took place in this part of the world, between these powers, at that time in history. If my memory is correct, contact between the Club members was mostly by letter, the language used was Arcadian, or maybe that is Akadian, I forget, but it was written in cuneiform.

Now, just because they were all in the same club did not mean that they necessarily got along with each other very well. It is convenient to think of the club members as including the Hittites, because everybody has heard of the Hittites, but the Hittites actually migrated into Anatolia and absorbed the Hatti, and then the Hatti as Hittites invaded the Mitrani , so by the time that the "Club" was functioning, the Mitrani were actually under the control of the Hittites.

I suspect that investigation might demonstrate that by the time Tushratta traded off his daughter to Amenhotep III, the Mitrani were already dancing the jig to a tune played by the Hatti/Hittites

The Hittites were a pretty aggressive people, and long before the battle of Qadesh they had been causing more than a little disquiet in the Eastern Mediterranean. When the Hatti/Hittite armies took over the Mitrani lands they also took over the Egyptian vassal states, or tributary states, of Amaru and Qadesh. This was the start of a war that lasted for a couple of hundred years. The Egyptians wanted the lands of Qadesh and Amaru back, the Hittites wanted to hang onto them, even though the original Hittite conquest of these places was only a by-product of a much larger action.

The peak of hostilities was the Battle of Qadesh, but it really didn't fix things, even when the treaty was accepted by both sides.

In fact, I was taught that what many people regard as a "peace treaty" was not really a peace treaty at all, but it was an agreement for Egypt and the Hittites to maintain a cordial alliance for mutual benefit. It appears this type of treaty was not uncommon in that part of the world at that time.

So --- yes, there was most definitely active diplomacy between the major powers of the Eastern Mediterranean during this period. As I have already remarked, I am not a scholar of ancient history, everything I have written above is just general knowledge, not specialist knowledge. Perhaps a specialist in the relevant branch of the study of history might be able to direct us to some written evidence of diplomatic ties between the members of the "Great Powers Club", but for me, the generally accepted position that there was active diplomacy present is sufficient:- if the people who are experts in this field tell me that there was active diplomacy between these Club members, I'm prepared to accept that.

This has been an interesting diversion, and I thank you David for making me stretch my memory and think hard enough to give me a headache, but whether there was diplomacy active or not, whether the KT dagger came from the Hittite court or from a Hittite vassal, it does not alter the fact that only Hittite technology could have produced this blade at that time in history.

And to get back to the Jambon hypothesis, was there sufficient meteoritic material available to make all those Hittite swords, tools, and jewellery out of meteorite? Seriously?

kronckew · 19th December 2017, 08:55 AM

Could it have been a battle pickup, trophy of Ramses II's 'Victory' that had lain in the Pharaonic armoury or been passed down? Like Charlemagne's sabre, the hilt having been cleaned, tarted up/repaired and otherwise 'updated' over time...

Soldiers have always admired and 'acquired' their enemy's weapons.

RobertGuy · 19th December 2017, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Could it have been a battle pickup...

Unlikely to be a battle pick up. Whatever its source this would have been an extremely valuable and prized piece. I doubt if it would ever have been taken into battle, except perhaps by a ruler or senior royalty.

kronckew · 19th December 2017, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Unlikely to be a battle pick up. Whatever its source this would have been an extremely valuable and prized piece. I doubt if it would ever have been taken into battle, except perhaps by a ruler or senior royalty.

...like the Pharaoh

David · 19th December 2017, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Could it have been a battle pickup, trophy of Ramses II's 'Victory' that had lain in the Pharaonic armoury or been passed down? Like Charlemagne's sabre, the hilt having been cleaned, tarted up/repaired and otherwise 'updated' over time...

Soldiers have always admired and 'acquired' their enemy's weapons.

While i think it is quite possible that it could have indeed been war booty (the entire handle could well have been added later as it is in Egyptian form and the Egyptians had prized iron objects and considered them "royal" for centuries before), but it could hardly be a trophy of Ramses II as that pharaoh cam almost a century AFTER Tutankhamun.

kronckew · 19th December 2017, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

While i think it is quite possible that it could have indeed been war booty (the entire handle could well have been added later as it is in Egyptian form and the Egyptians had prized iron objects and considered them "royal" for centuries before), but it could hardly be a trophy of Ramses II as that pharaoh cam almost a century AFTER Tutankhamen.

Correct, my memory of the Pharaonic succession sequence is incomplete, a mere 200 years in a few thousand is almost contemporary

I seem to recall an earlier invasion of northern (lower) Egypt by 'Hittites' where they were eventually thrown out & the throne of upper & lower Egypt was united. I also recall the invaders were probably not the same 'Hittites' of later years, but Sea-people, possibly Minoan/atlantean (theran?). Floating around in my memory is contamination based on scorpions, over muscled wrestlers, one of which had a large yataghan, and sexy witches and snakes in jars, and not being able to catch an arrow... But that may be another story.

David · 19th December 2017, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Floating around in my memory is contamination based on scorpions, over muscled wrestlers, one of which had a large yataghan, and sexy witches and snakes in jars, and not being able to catch an arrow... But that may be another story.

LOL!

David · 19th December 2017, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I suspect that investigation might demonstrate that by the time Tushratta traded off his daughter to Amenhotep III, the Mitrani were already dancing the jig to a tune played by the Hatti/Hittites.

Actually no, the Mitanni forces were at this time very concerned about the Hittites which was why they were aligning themselves with Egypt and trying to arrange this marriage to cement it. It was not until after the death of both Amenhotep and Tushratta that the Hittite empire finally succeeded in overrunning the last holdings of the Mitanni kingdom. The Egyptians never did come to their aid, probably because of turmoil in there own house at the time. The Hittites finally installed Tushratta's brother on the Mitanni throne and i would image it was then that they began to dance the Hatti Jig.

Sorry if all this history is taxing your brain Alan, but if we want to attempt to understand or maybe even solve the mystery of this dagger in King Tut's tomb all this stuff kind of comes into play.

18th December 2017, 08:15 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	The first thing we do know for sure is that iron working in Egypt began with the wide availability of iron smelting technology around 600BC. Iron working in Anatolia began hundreds of years earlier. By about 1400 BC there was ongoing production of iron artifacts by the Hittites. The second thing we do know for sure is that Rameses II (?) led an army of tens of thousands ---- 10K, 20K, 30K ? --- against the Hittites in the second half of the 1200's BC. This resulted in a battle at Qadesh. The Egyptians were a major technologically advanced power, so were the Hittites, they were evenly matched and they both claimed that they won, another way of thinking about Qadesh is that they both lost. In any case, what it boils down to is this:- prior to Qadesh the Hittites had been an ongoing problem for the Egyptians, Qadesh did not settle things immediately, and there was further aggravation on both sides after Qadesh, but 15 or 20 years after Qadesh the Egyptians and the Hittites had a sit-down and agreed a treaty of peace. My understanding is that a modern copy of this treaty is in the headquarters of the UN in New York. It is believed to be the first international peace treaty. Peace Treaties do not come into existence in the absence of diplomacy. Diplomacy also thrives in the lead up to wars. Ancient leaders were no more stupid than modern leaders:- nobody wants war if it can be avoided. A superficial time line looks like this:- pre-1500BC iron working technology begins in Anatolia, the Hittite People inhabit Anatolia 1400BC iron working technology used by Hittite nation for manufacture of weapons 1300 to 1200BC ongoing Egyptian and Hittite conflicts culminating in the Battle of Qadesh, which ultimately generates the world's first peace treaty. Interestingly King Tutankhamen died in about 1300BC. We cannot claim to know the exact circumstances under which KT got hold of his dagger, but if we can recall our high school history lessons we do have virtually irrefutable evidence for exactly where that dagger blade came from. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th December 2017 at 09:18 PM.

19th December 2017, 04:01 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	These extended exchanges on the Ancient World are really taxing my memory. I am not a scholar of ancient history, I do not have time to do a crash course in Wiki history, so I am constrained to writing from my fractured remembrances of high school history and just plain old general knowledge. If I get a few dates and numbers wrong, and I fail to spell names correctly, you can put it down to my aging memory. OK. The Battle of Qadesh is probably the best documented battle of the ancient world, we know why it occurred, when it occurred, the outcomes, and the consequences. In the Ancient World there was a group of countries that historians refer to as the "Great Powers Club", this "club" was made up of the major powers in The Levant, Mesopotamia and Anatolia, these powers were Egyptian Empire, Hittite Empire, Babylon, Assyria and Mitani. The balance of power between the members of this "Club" went through cycles of change, they all wanted to expand their areas of influence and build their empires. A system of exchange of royal gifts developed, whereby the rulers would exchange gifts of things over which they had control. One of these gifts was women, who were from the royal line of one ruler, given as a wife to another ruler. Egyptian rulers refused to give women of their royal line to other rulers because royal Egyptian women were required as wives for their own Royal Egyptian brothers and other close relatives. However, the Egyptian Rulers were more than agreeable to accepting as wives the women from royal lines of other rulers. This exchange of royal gifts was a part of diplomacy that took place in this part of the world, between these powers, at that time in history. If my memory is correct, contact between the Club members was mostly by letter, the language used was Arcadian, or maybe that is Akadian, I forget, but it was written in cuneiform. Now, just because they were all in the same club did not mean that they necessarily got along with each other very well. It is convenient to think of the club members as including the Hittites, because everybody has heard of the Hittites, but the Hittites actually migrated into Anatolia and absorbed the Hatti, and then the Hatti as Hittites invaded the Mitrani , so by the time that the "Club" was functioning, the Mitrani were actually under the control of the Hittites. I suspect that investigation might demonstrate that by the time Tushratta traded off his daughter to Amenhotep III, the Mitrani were already dancing the jig to a tune played by the Hatti/Hittites The Hittites were a pretty aggressive people, and long before the battle of Qadesh they had been causing more than a little disquiet in the Eastern Mediterranean. When the Hatti/Hittite armies took over the Mitrani lands they also took over the Egyptian vassal states, or tributary states, of Amaru and Qadesh. This was the start of a war that lasted for a couple of hundred years. The Egyptians wanted the lands of Qadesh and Amaru back, the Hittites wanted to hang onto them, even though the original Hittite conquest of these places was only a by-product of a much larger action. The peak of hostilities was the Battle of Qadesh, but it really didn't fix things, even when the treaty was accepted by both sides. In fact, I was taught that what many people regard as a "peace treaty" was not really a peace treaty at all, but it was an agreement for Egypt and the Hittites to maintain a cordial alliance for mutual benefit. It appears this type of treaty was not uncommon in that part of the world at that time. So --- yes, there was most definitely active diplomacy between the major powers of the Eastern Mediterranean during this period. As I have already remarked, I am not a scholar of ancient history, everything I have written above is just general knowledge, not specialist knowledge. Perhaps a specialist in the relevant branch of the study of history might be able to direct us to some written evidence of diplomatic ties between the members of the "Great Powers Club", but for me, the generally accepted position that there was active diplomacy present is sufficient:- if the people who are experts in this field tell me that there was active diplomacy between these Club members, I'm prepared to accept that. This has been an interesting diversion, and I thank you David for making me stretch my memory and think hard enough to give me a headache, but whether there was diplomacy active or not, whether the KT dagger came from the Hittite court or from a Hittite vassal, it does not alter the fact that only Hittite technology could have produced this blade at that time in history. And to get back to the Jambon hypothesis, was there sufficient meteoritic material available to make all those Hittite swords, tools, and jewellery out of meteorite? Seriously?

19th December 2017, 08:55 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Could it have been a battle pickup, trophy of Ramses II's 'Victory' that had lain in the Pharaonic armoury or been passed down? Like Charlemagne's sabre, the hilt having been cleaned, tarted up/repaired and otherwise 'updated' over time... Soldiers have always admired and 'acquired' their enemy's weapons.