An early English dog lock musket

[rickystl]

Hi Mark.

Oh, the pics from the cellphone are MUCH better. Thank you. I keep looking at that frizzen LOL. The design of the pan cover portion of the frizzen (and the pan itself) look like a carry-over from a matchlock. It is very robust looking.
Something else I noticed: There appears to be an empty hole between the rear of the hammer and the dog catch. Can you tell if that hole has threads in it ? All of these early dog locks I've seen were mounted using three lock plate screws. However, this gun has only two. And there doesn't seem to be any evidence from the stock that there were originally three. Curious. Possibly when the gun was assembled the gunsmith saw no need (or didn't have ?) a third screw and/or thought it unnessary (?)
Mark: Could I ask you for one more pic of the outside of the complete lock - using the cellphone ?

Rick

[fernando]

If i may stick my nose in, Mark ...
Rick, i am aware of the three lock screws meaning signs of earlier age but, is that a definite sign, or just an eventual one?
I realize my example is rather early but, it only has two screws. What would you make of it ?


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[rickystl]

Hi Fernando.

Eventual would probably be the most accurate. The three screw lock seemed to be dominate on early guns/locks - of English manufacture. But it's not a hard fast rule. A good example would be the British, First Model Brown Bess musket of 1728 used only two screws. But the British Sea Service musket of about 1738 continued the use of three screws. I guess the third screw was eventually faded out and simply considered unnecessary.
That lock you just posted looks typical dog lock but with a bit of Spanish/Portugese influence. Very cool.
Occassionaly, you will find a later dog lock that has a half-cock saftey feature on the lock tumbler (like a regular flintlock) but still retaining a dog safety catch as an extra safety. Curious.

Rick

[fernando]

Much obliged for your notes, Rick.

[M ELEY]

Hello Rick,

In regards to the hole between the hammer and catch, yes, it appears to be threaded. On the direct opposite side of the lock, corresponding to where this "screw" would thread through, there is a very small hole in the wood. I'm assuming this is where it would have threaded through if it were ever accessed? (it never was, apparently). I'll take that last picture soon and thanks again-
Mark

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Rick,

In regards to the hole between the hammer and catch, yes, it appears to be threaded. On the direct opposite side of the lock, corresponding to where this "screw" would thread through, there is a very small hole in the wood. I'm assuming this is where it would have threaded through if it were ever accessed? (it never was, apparently). I'll take that last picture soon and thanks again-
Mark

Hi Mark.

OK. So the lock itself was built to accept three plate screws, as would be common for these early locks. For whatever reason, who ever assembled the gun felt it unessesary to use the third screw. Or didn't have one available LOL
The two plate screws and the tiny screw on the outside of the lock plate tail being sufficient. With the exception of the tiny hole you mention, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it ever having the third hole. Curious.

Anyway. If you can, a photos of the lock interior would be really interesting.

Thanks, Rick.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by rickystl

...The three screw lock seemed to be dominate on early guns/locks - of English manufacture. But it's not a hard fast rule...

You are right; this system has also been an option in this side of the canal.
This blunderbuss i locally acquired the other day has such lock fixation method. Also we can see in works like ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA that, the three screw system was used over here as early as from the XVI century. Perhaps early locksmiths saw it as a need to better fix lengthier plates, the Portuguese "molinhas", being a good example .


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[rickystl]

Originally Posted by fernando

You are right; this system has also been an option in this side of the canal.
This blunderbuss i locally acquired the other day has such lock fixation method. Also we can see in works like ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA that, the three screw system was used over here as early as from the XVI century. Perhaps early locksmiths saw it as a need to better fix lengthier plates, the Portuguese "molinhas", being a good example .


.

Hi Fernando.

WOW!!!! That is a very cool Portugese lock on that blunderbuss. And looks very early. Hope you start a seperate thread with the whole gun.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. The three screw system was likely to accomodate the longer lockplates of the earlier guns. Also, during earlier times, it would have been easier to forge parts of larger proportions than smaller.

Rick

[fernando]

Originally Posted by rickystl

... Hope you start a seperate thread with the whole gun ...

I already did, some time go ... HERE

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by fernando

I already did, some time go ... HERE

Oh my. Somehow I missed this Thread. Thanks. Very interesting reading. And my belated congratulations for finally having the piece in your own collection.
By the way, you will occassionally see these frizzen spring shields on Ottoman/Eastern guns. I've seen them on both miquelet and flintlocks.

Thanks again for the Link.

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by fernando

You are right; this system has also been an option in this side of the canal.
This blunderbuss i locally acquired the other day has such lock fixation method. Also we can see in works like ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA that, the three screw system was used over here as early as from the XVI century. Perhaps early locksmiths saw it as a need to better fix lengthier plates, the Portuguese "molinhas", being a good example .


.

Hi Fernando.

WOW!!!! That is a very cool Portugese lock on that blunderbuss. And looks very early. Hope you start a seperate thread with the whole gun.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. The three screw system was likely to accomodate the longer lockplates of the earlier guns. Also, during earlier times, it would have been easier to forge parts of larger proportions than smaller.

Rick