Mambele Sickle Sword

ariel · 25th November 2017, 01:57 PM

I could not find even a hint of such assertion in this paper, but if you indeed read it somewhere, I (just like you) doubt its veracity. Weapons, no matter how simple, always come first: one needs to defend himself and his family against predators ( animal and human) as a prerequisite for planting turnips. And then he will need weapons to protect his turnips :-) Agriculture is a relatively late occupation of a settled society.

Nomads of Asia had splendid weapons without ever planting a single cabbage patch. Some Chinese martial arts weapons did indeed stem from agricultural implements ( “ fighting hoe”, “ fighting shovel” etc) but those are mostly used by Shaolin monks in the Friday night Kung Fu movie marathons:-)

African sword-like objects are so convoluted and so decorative, that their descent from their horrendously primitive and ( barely) functional agricultural tools and/or fully functional hunting implements seems to be impossible and presupposes some magical or artistic background.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th November 2017, 03:24 PM

I tend to agree but as I was cutting the 15 feet tall grass in my garden the link sprang to mind... Agri-hand tools to weapons... It wasn't until I had fully read the blurb that I realized it was likely the other way around although it seemed linkable in the scythe tool I was using to some curved sword blades. I suppose the axe is possibly linked but it is just natural development of the blade from one use to another and nothing to write home about... Except for the horrible tall grass I still haven't fully cleared as small pockets of resistance remain.

Tim Simmons · 25th November 2017, 04:32 PM

There is information on these swords deep in the archive. If I remember correctly there is historic information that the use of this particular form was in a more formalised type of fighting. A code base form of combat is common to many cultures where actual death may may not be the ultimate aim.

Martin Lubojacky · 25th November 2017, 07:37 PM

Not all sub-Saharan African swords have have peculiar forms which render their fighting funcions. I think this is not matter of African Horn, East Africa, Sahel, South Africa. Such weapons come usually or mostly from the West and Central Africa (BTW - very often from the regions, wher they also used various ceremonial items like masks, statues). Why - I don´t know. (But - in any case through the whole continent they used diverse styles of very effective spears...)

RobertGuy · 25th November 2017, 07:46 PM

Following this with interest and the general idea that these might not have been terribly effective as weapons. I had a suggestion from another forum that swords such as these are primarily used as currency. Anyone heard of this?

Martin Lubojacky · 25th November 2017, 08:22 PM

Yes - ceremonial blades were used as a currency (e.g abnormally big spear blades).

Besides this there were "status" swords, but I am not sure if this is the case this long Zande sickles.

This blades are long and not too much thick, made of a relatively soft iron at the same time (you can bend it down easily) - I am of the opinion, that it was not effective weapon (maybe Zande had some special fighting tactics or fioghting art ...?!?). I could not be too much effective even for stabbing from behind.

Martin Lubojacky · 25th November 2017, 08:28 PM

Sorry for the keying mistakes --- not me, but it could not be effective for stabbing ...

25th November 2017, 01:57 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I could not find even a hint of such assertion in this paper, but if you indeed read it somewhere, I (just like you) doubt its veracity. Weapons, no matter how simple, always come first: one needs to defend himself and his family against predators ( animal and human) as a prerequisite for planting turnips. And then he will need weapons to protect his turnips :-) Agriculture is a relatively late occupation of a settled society. Nomads of Asia had splendid weapons without ever planting a single cabbage patch. Some Chinese martial arts weapons did indeed stem from agricultural implements ( “ fighting hoe”, “ fighting shovel” etc) but those are mostly used by Shaolin monks in the Friday night Kung Fu movie marathons:-) African sword-like objects are so convoluted and so decorative, that their descent from their horrendously primitive and ( barely) functional agricultural tools and/or fully functional hunting implements seems to be impossible and presupposes some magical or artistic background.

25th November 2017, 03:24 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I tend to agree but as I was cutting the 15 feet tall grass in my garden the link sprang to mind... Agri-hand tools to weapons... It wasn't until I had fully read the blurb that I realized it was likely the other way around although it seemed linkable in the scythe tool I was using to some curved sword blades. I suppose the axe is possibly linked but it is just natural development of the blade from one use to another and nothing to write home about... Except for the horrible tall grass I still haven't fully cleared as small pockets of resistance remain.

25th November 2017, 04:32 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	There is information on these swords deep in the archive. If I remember correctly there is historic information that the use of this particular form was in a more formalised type of fighting. A code base form of combat is common to many cultures where actual death may may not be the ultimate aim.

25th November 2017, 07:37 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Not all sub-Saharan African swords have have peculiar forms which render their fighting funcions. I think this is not matter of African Horn, East Africa, Sahel, South Africa. Such weapons come usually or mostly from the West and Central Africa (BTW - very often from the regions, wher they also used various ceremonial items like masks, statues). Why - I don´t know. (But - in any case through the whole continent they used diverse styles of very effective spears...)

25th November 2017, 07:46 PM	#5
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Following this with interest and the general idea that these might not have been terribly effective as weapons. I had a suggestion from another forum that swords such as these are primarily used as currency. Anyone heard of this?

25th November 2017, 08:22 PM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Yes - ceremonial blades were used as a currency (e.g abnormally big spear blades). Besides this there were "status" swords, but I am not sure if this is the case this long Zande sickles. This blades are long and not too much thick, made of a relatively soft iron at the same time (you can bend it down easily) - I am of the opinion, that it was not effective weapon (maybe Zande had some special fighting tactics or fioghting art ...?!?). I could not be too much effective even for stabbing from behind.

25th November 2017, 08:28 PM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Sorry for the keying mistakes --- not me, but it could not be effective for stabbing ...