Moroccan Saif with a British (?) Hanger Blade

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Reference;
A.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha


Great thread... very much in support of the various threads on Moroccan Saif and on the Shotley and other centres in England. ...However~ It is my view that a lot of this is in fact still being penciled into the margin for example; the SH inside the bushy tail fox is Samuel Harvey either Snr or Jnr of Birmingham. The Shotley Bridge wolf mark is either a copy of the Solingen/ Passau mark on imported Solingen blades or was struck by the German sword makers at Shotley Bridge. There is some conjecture as to Hounslow using the bushy tail fox and other sword makers but it is still unfurling...

The Moroccan saif was used by English military Bands of London e.g.Tobias Blose is painted
carrying one (Ref A) thus these English blades were seen on Moroccan hilts.

If these blades were being brought into North Africa I see no reason why they could not have been used as many blades came flooding in on the trade blade route.

The Piton guard on TVVs first at #1 is Moroccan. The hilt above with a formal cross guard and turned down pommel had a chain guard still showing the pin on the pommel where it was attached. ...and three pronged top to the pommel more in fashion with the Red Sea Saudia variant ..Reference A. Refers.

One key indicator is the peened spigot on top of the pommel which on Zanzibari weapons looks like a turtle. Usually on other types it is a simple round stud; occasionally decorated.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted guys, and I was remiss in noting that Ibrahiim indeed did present some remarkable research toward the comparison of local material culture from Zanazibar (the comb) to the decorative motif on some nimchas.
Also, he showed the 'turtle' style pommel cap on a good number of examples and that this may recognize the significance of these in the cultures there in Zanzibar.

I believe that the Buttin references were particularly prevalent in my comments that of the nimcha hilt designs, none of them were specifically attributable to Zanzibar. Actually to be sure, in my thinking none of the designs were attributable regionally beyond the Maghrebi designation.

With the D ring loop over the blade type, long generally held to be Zanzibari, it does seem that this designation, for me at least, came from one I acquired some years back. Artzi indicated it was part of a number of these from a Yemeni arsenal, and these had been from production in Zanzibar sent there for some conflicts and warfare which were ongoing decades prior.

In retrospect, I believe that was correct, and I believe these 'D loop' guards are referred to by Alain Jacob as 'Zanzibari' as well. However, subsequently as I acquired the Buttin reference (1933), and in private conversations with his grandson, the term 'Arab' was collectively used to describe these sa'if.

As I later realized, the term 'Arab' was directed not only the those who inhabit the Arabian peninsula, but to those who occupy many regions colonially which includes of course the North African Maghreb.

I took it then that the 'nimcha' (its term explained earlier as a Persian word not used locally) was indeed a Maghrebi form, whose style extended to the western and Arab regions of Southern India, as well as to the Pan Arab trade regions including Zanzibar. It is notable that one distinct version of these kinds of hilts with three protrusions at pommel back is Hadramauti, fron those regions in Yemen.

The style of hilt with the pitons (their purpose effectively unknown) does seem of course Maghrebi. There is speculation and debate on this curious affectation but nothing conclusive .

In all, there does seem to be credence in the suggestion by Tirri (2003) that there were indeed arms assembly locations in Zanzibar, which would have been the source for these loop guard examples of the 'nimcha', as noted by Artzi as I mentioned earlier. Whether these were in form indigenous to there alone remains unclear, but it does seem a notable number did originate there.

I had forgotten that Buttin's writing predated the warfare in Yemen by decades, so he would not have been aware of the later situation with Zanzibar. Now the question would be, just where did the influence for these loop guards in the Zanzibar hilts; and the curious pitons in the Moroccan examples come from?

As for the use of English blades, that situation I think has been well explained here, the clear contacts between England and the Maghreb from early 17th c. onward.

[Andreas]

TVV

I too am wondering about the reason for the unusual quillons bent perpendicularly to the blade. The hilt is most certainly Maghrebi: the form of the grip and the decoration of the white metal band under the guard are Moroccan in style. Could this have some chronological (earlier vs. later style) or geographical significance

Jim McDougall

As I later realized, the term 'Arab' was directed not only the those who inhabit the Arabian peninsula, but to those who occupy many regions colonially which includes of course the North African Maghreb.

In his article Les poignards et les sabres marocains (in revue Hespéris XXVI, 1939, pp 1-28 & plates I-X), Buttin makes the following statements:
The pitones, and the D ring serve as protection for the hand against a blow sliding down the flat of the blade. The former are a Spanish influence on Moroccan sabres and a rare occurance, while the latter is even rarer, but not unusual in the Arab variant.
He makes a clear distinction between Maghrebis and Arabs from the Peninsula.
This type of sabre came to the Maghreb with the conquest of North Africa by the Arabs.
The Maghrebi hilt retains the form of early Arab examples.
He goes on to describe at length the differences between Maghrebi and Arab hilts.

Regards,
Andreas

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Butin was not only and excellent weapons author but lived in Morocco. It can be seen that he named these charts carefully...

1.One is Moroccan.and other African arms.
2.The other is Arabian...
3.The Third is other Oriental variants.

Both structure and blade size are comparable in each chart.

He produced accurate charts viz;