An early English dog lock musket

M ELEY · 22nd November 2017, 12:55 AM

'Nando, I'll have you know that I went to the esteemed Mr. Magoo Academy of Photography, thank you very much!

. Yes, I am no master with the camera.

I was unaware you recently got a dog lock! I've fallen behind on recent threads and will try to take a peak.

In regards to buccaneers, I did indeed mention the earlier chaps, so the second wave of Indies buccaneer infiltrators, De Graff, Van Hoorn and de Grammont are better suited to era. That being said, there are some sources that claim the dog lock dates back even earlier than I mentioned, to the 1630's.

As a sword lover over guns, I am happy to see the early portraits of the pirates with cutlasses and such. That being said, it was in fact the long guns that Morgan's and Jean Nau's men carried that took down the fortresses and settlements in Panama.The hangers/cutlass certainly helped with the close-up, hand-to-hand fighting.

Pukka Bundook · 22nd November 2017, 03:28 AM

Wonderful gun M. Congrats on finding such a rare best!

Now, I would really appreciate some good clear photos, taken with a camera.

Everything looks right, and something to be proud of.

Richard.

M ELEY · 22nd November 2017, 05:30 AM

Thanks for the interest, Richard. As I said, I am no 'gun person', so I would like to make sure everything is right with the piece. From what I can tell, it is legit, with a nice even patina, hand made screws/nails, aging to wood.

I've been looking at the locks on other specimens and the only thing different from the remarkably few I've been able to find is that mine has a frizzen spring. I've seen later guns with them, but wasn't sure they were around in this time period. I will try and take some clearer pics. The cheap digital camera I used is the pits. My daughter's smart phone might be better...

fernando · 22nd November 2017, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

'Nando, I was unaware you recently got a dog lock! .

Well, not so recently Captain; but you have been there. Could it be that the mermaids stole a part of your memory ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21281

M ELEY · 22nd November 2017, 11:45 AM

OMG, I really think I am losing my memory! I totally forgot about this piece! (sorry!). In my defense, I have worked 60+ hours this week! I guess I never imagined that I might own such a weapon, so my memories stem more towards the swords in other's collections. In any case, that is a spectacular piece and I'm glad you attached the thread here! The mermaids are glad as well-

rickystl · 22nd November 2017, 03:24 PM

Hi Mark.

OMG!! Congratulations !! A very early, and very rare, English doglock musket. Where did you find it ?? And, as Richard says, very deserving of some good photos. In that regard........if you want some assistance in taking photos, you are welcome to send the gun to me

I'll even pay the shipping both ways

Seriously, it's a wonderful aquisition. These are so rarely seen, especially in such complete condition. Some early observations:
The stock profile, and the overall large proportions put this gun in the time frame you first mention above. Probably not any latter. Notice the trigger guard is simply screwed unto the stock, with no inletting to the stock. A common feature. I can't tell from the photos here, but it could have been made without an iron butt plate. Would not surprise me.
LOCK: English doglocks seemed to have appeared since at least the 1640's, in various styles. The early doglocks I've seen had three lock plate screws securing the lock to the stock. This lock appears to have only two, but with a third small screw securing the tail of the lock plate from the lock side. Interesting. But what I first noticed was the hammer stop mounted on the outside of the lock plate. This is a feature seen on snaphaunce locks, which pre-date the doglock. See photo below. Which may suggest that the lock pre-dates 1680 as a transition type of lock. Or it could be that the lock maker simply wanted to keep this feature. Or maybe the lock is even older than the rest of the gun. But from these photos, it looks like the gun was all made together.

Again, Congratulations. A great find. Please post additional photos when you have a chance. Hopefully showing the lock internals. Would be most anxious to see them.

Rick

M ELEY · 23rd November 2017, 04:26 AM

Hello Rick and thank you so much for the good news on the gun. The story behind it was I picked it up at a very high end art and antiques gallery locally. It formally belonged to an English fellow who got it supposedly back in London through a Sotheby's auction. He also had excellent artwork and a piece of tassett armour from the Tower of London (with paperwork for the armor). I suspected that mine never had a butt plate, but was afraid to look foolish if wrong-

. I will work on taking better pics and posting them soon. Thanks again!
Mark

Marcus den toom · 23rd November 2017, 07:18 AM

Always liked these locks and found some interesting references.
Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis...

http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html

Pukka Bundook · 23rd November 2017, 01:03 PM

Mark,

When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work.

Congrats again!

Rick,
Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?

rickystl · 23rd November 2017, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Always liked these locks and found some interesting references.
Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis...

http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html

Hi Marcus.

Thank you for the interesting reading. First time I have seen this.
Those photos showing two variations of the "English" lock, sometimes referred to as a Jacobean lock, although I don't recall why this reference.
The larger photo shows the retaining piece (the proper name escapes me at the moment) between the frizzen screw and the frizzen spring. This feature is also on Mark's lock.
The smaller photo shows one piece being used as both a frizzen spring and a hammer stop. Appears to be an attempt at simplification. Interesting.

I find these early transistion type locks very interesting. It's obvious there was alot of lock experimentation between about 1600-1670 from the wheellock to the French style flintlock.

Rick

22nd November 2017, 12:55 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	'Nando, I'll have you know that I went to the esteemed Mr. Magoo Academy of Photography, thank you very much! . Yes, I am no master with the camera. I was unaware you recently got a dog lock! I've fallen behind on recent threads and will try to take a peak. In regards to buccaneers, I did indeed mention the earlier chaps, so the second wave of Indies buccaneer infiltrators, De Graff, Van Hoorn and de Grammont are better suited to era. That being said, there are some sources that claim the dog lock dates back even earlier than I mentioned, to the 1630's. As a sword lover over guns, I am happy to see the early portraits of the pirates with cutlasses and such. That being said, it was in fact the long guns that Morgan's and Jean Nau's men carried that took down the fortresses and settlements in Panama.The hangers/cutlass certainly helped with the close-up, hand-to-hand fighting. Last edited by M ELEY; 22nd November 2017 at 05:25 AM.

22nd November 2017, 03:24 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Mark. OMG!! Congratulations !! A very early, and very rare, English doglock musket. Where did you find it ?? And, as Richard says, very deserving of some good photos. In that regard........if you want some assistance in taking photos, you are welcome to send the gun to me I'll even pay the shipping both ways Seriously, it's a wonderful aquisition. These are so rarely seen, especially in such complete condition. Some early observations: The stock profile, and the overall large proportions put this gun in the time frame you first mention above. Probably not any latter. Notice the trigger guard is simply screwed unto the stock, with no inletting to the stock. A common feature. I can't tell from the photos here, but it could have been made without an iron butt plate. Would not surprise me. LOCK: English doglocks seemed to have appeared since at least the 1640's, in various styles. The early doglocks I've seen had three lock plate screws securing the lock to the stock. This lock appears to have only two, but with a third small screw securing the tail of the lock plate from the lock side. Interesting. But what I first noticed was the hammer stop mounted on the outside of the lock plate. This is a feature seen on snaphaunce locks, which pre-date the doglock. See photo below. Which may suggest that the lock pre-dates 1680 as a transition type of lock. Or it could be that the lock maker simply wanted to keep this feature. Or maybe the lock is even older than the rest of the gun. But from these photos, it looks like the gun was all made together. Again, Congratulations. A great find. Please post additional photos when you have a chance. Hopefully showing the lock internals. Would be most anxious to see them. Rick Attached Images

23rd November 2017, 07:18 AM	#8
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Always liked these locks and found some interesting references. Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis... http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html Attached Images

22nd November 2017, 03:28 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Wonderful gun M. Congrats on finding such a rare best! Now, I would really appreciate some good clear photos, taken with a camera. Everything looks right, and something to be proud of. Richard.

22nd November 2017, 05:30 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for the interest, Richard. As I said, I am no 'gun person', so I would like to make sure everything is right with the piece. From what I can tell, it is legit, with a nice even patina, hand made screws/nails, aging to wood. I've been looking at the locks on other specimens and the only thing different from the remarkably few I've been able to find is that mine has a frizzen spring. I've seen later guns with them, but wasn't sure they were around in this time period. I will try and take some clearer pics. The cheap digital camera I used is the pits. My daughter's smart phone might be better...

22nd November 2017, 11:45 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	OMG, I really think I am losing my memory! I totally forgot about this piece! (sorry!). In my defense, I have worked 60+ hours this week! I guess I never imagined that I might own such a weapon, so my memories stem more towards the swords in other's collections. In any case, that is a spectacular piece and I'm glad you attached the thread here! The mermaids are glad as well-

23rd November 2017, 04:26 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Rick and thank you so much for the good news on the gun. The story behind it was I picked it up at a very high end art and antiques gallery locally. It formally belonged to an English fellow who got it supposedly back in London through a Sotheby's auction. He also had excellent artwork and a piece of tassett armour from the Tower of London (with paperwork for the armor). I suspected that mine never had a butt plate, but was afraid to look foolish if wrong- . I will work on taking better pics and posting them soon. Thanks again! Mark

23rd November 2017, 01:03 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Mark, When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work. Congrats again! Rick, Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?