Keris Selit

Jean · 14th November 2017, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

David;

Jean;

Your first keris is not from peninsula Malaysia, but I guess from Sumatra based on the hilt form. The second is not Malay too I believe. the blade is heavily stained (warangan) whereas malay blade is never waranged. The hilt of the second keris is Peninsula Malay hilt though.

Hello Green,
I agree that the first kris is probably from Sumatra but not of a common type. I have used the word Malay in the broad sense so it is not equivalent to Malaysian.
Regarding the blade of the second kris, it was treated by warangan in Solo even if this is not traditional in Malaysia so you can't assess its origin based on this

Regards

David · 14th November 2017, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Green,
I agree that the first kris is probably from Sumatra but not of a common type. I have used the word Malay in the broad sense so it is not equivalent to Malaysian.
Regarding the blade of the second kris, it was treated by warangan in Solo even if this is not traditional in Malaysia so you can't assess its origin based on this

Regards

I certainly understood your usage of "Malay" in this sense and also agree with you that you can't place the origin of a blade based upon whether or not it has received a warangan treatment since any blade from anywhere might get such a treatment dependent upon who its owner is and the customs of the area in which the blade travels and ends up.
I could be mistaken, but from my understanding Sumatra is a bit of a mixed bag culturally. Parts of it seem to be strongly under the influence of Malay keris culture while other parts (Palembang area) were strongly influenced by Jawa. So i wonder if the custom of keris selit was not known in the more Malay influenced regions.

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2017, 10:28 PM

Green, this is not a challenge, it is a question about something I do not know.

You, and many other people have the belief that Malay keris were"never stained", and certainly this is the case at the present time.

However, during my life time, and until now, I have had, and now have keris that were collected in old Malaya, before Malaya became Malaysia, and in Southern Thailand, Pattani. Some of these keris were collected circa 1920.

These keris display both stained finish, and unstained finish. I have two Pattani keris that have original stain from circa 1920.

I have just sold a Bugis keris collected in old Batavia (now Jakarta) in circa 1920, the blade was not stained when it was bought.

So do we know when and where this ethic of "no stain" arose?

It seems to me that throughout the "no stain" areas of today, that in the past it may have been a matter of personal preference as to whether a blade was stained or not.

David · 14th November 2017, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You, and many other people have the belief that Malay keris were"never stained", and certainly this is the case at the present time.

However, during my life time, and until now, I have had, and now have keris that were collected in old Malaya, before Malaya became Malaysia, and in Southern Thailand, Pattani. Some of these keris were collected circa 1920.

These keris display both stained finish, and unstained finish. I have two Pattani keris that have original stain from circa 1920.

I have just sold a Bugis keris collected in old Batavia (now Jakarta) in circa 1920, the blade was not stained when it was bought.

So do we know when and where this ethic of "no stain" arose?

It seems to me that throughout the "no stain" areas of today, that in the past it may have been a matter of personal preference as to whether a blade was stained or not.

This is a good question Alan, though i wonder if we can actually find any definitive answer. Since the keris began in Jawa and spread throughout the area from there it does seem logical that in the early stages of its travels the customs of blade treatment common in Jawa would be followed at least to some extent by those adopting the keris as their own. That you have or have had keris form these areas with provenance that dates at least to the early 20th century that did indeed still have original stain seems a good indication that warangan treatment was not unheard of for keris of Malay origin.

Green · 15th November 2017, 12:03 AM

Alan; A v good question and I'm no expert by a long shot. I hope malaysian keris experts that are present in the forum can give an answer . But I'll try to be brave and hazard an opinion.

As far as I know keris culture in Peninsula Malaysia and Patani (Southern Thailand Muslim majority province) has never had the staining culture and technique used for cleaning and maintaining the keris the way the Javanese do. In fact the term 'Warangan' has no direct translation in the Malay language. And there are no warangan materials available in Malaysia and those that need to do warangan on their (newly acquired javanese ) blades have to get them from Java. In short warangan has never been a Malay keris culture.

The malay/patani blades achieved their deep black coloration not because of warangan but initial treatment of the blade in acid bath and particular choice of iron used.

As to the presence of waranged old Malay blades , it may well have been done by people who have Javanese influence.

A. G. Maisey · 15th November 2017, 03:54 AM

Thanks for your opinion Green.
In fact, in the 19th century pamor in Malay blades was brought out by the use of salt and sulphur, I've used this method, it both etches and stains, and on an old blade that has been previously stained it gives quite an effective finish. I do not know if the sulphur and salt method was the only method used.
In respect of the word "warangan" it is a word that exists in Classical Malay, it is a loan word from Javanese, but in was in use in 19th century Malaya and is recognised as a part of the Classical Malay lexicon. It will be found in Wilkinson where the English meaning is given as "ratsbane; realgar". Warangan also can be found in Old Javanese, but there it means "a special colour". In Modern Javanese "warangan" means "arsenic", the correct word for staining a blade is "marangi", which can also mean to poison somebody or something.

So it is not quite correct to say that "warangan" has never been a part Malay usage, it definitely has been, but I agree, it is not now.

The evidence of two keris, collected in Pattani in about 1920, that are stained seems to indicate that 100 years ago blade staining was carried out in Pattani.

This still leaves the question:- when did it become general practice not to stain, because the evidence seems to indicate that 100 years ago, blades from Malaya, Pattani, and even Sulawesi, could be either stained or unstained.

Yes, possibly Javanese influence may have played a part in staining of blades. Javanese culture was the most influential culture in Maritime SE Asia for a very long time.But new Malay blades were subjected to the salt and sulphur treatment, so some Malay blades were stained at least when new, but perhaps were never re-stained.

Green · 15th November 2017, 04:23 AM

Alan;

Many thanks for your further clarification. It is interesting to note that you said 'warangan' has been a part of malay language usage. I as a Malay from Kelantan myself has never encounter this word until fairly recently when I got involved in keris collecting. Of course me not knowing this word does not mean that it was not a part of an original malay word and I am no linguist so I can not say you are wrong in this respect.

I have to defer this point to other more learned people in the forum. (they must be lurking somewhere as "CCTV" ...)

Jean · 15th November 2017, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your opinion Green.
In fact, in the 19th century pamor in Malay blades was brought out by the use of salt and sulphur, I've used this method, it both etches and stains, and on an old blade that has been previously stained it gives quite an effective finish. I do not know if the sulphur and salt method was the only method used.

So it is not quite correct to say that "warangan" has never been a part Malay usage, it definitely has been, but I agree, it is not now.

The evidence of two keris, collected in Pattani in about 1920, that are stained seems to indicate that 100 years ago blade staining was carried out in Pattani.

This still leaves the question:- when did it become general practice not to stain, because the evidence seems to indicate that 100 years ago, blades from Malaya, Pattani, and even Sulawesi, could be either stained or unstained.

Yes, possibly Javanese influence may have played a part in staining of blades. Javanese culture was the most influential culture in Maritime SE Asia for a very long time.But new Malay blades were subjected to the salt and sulphur treatment, so some Malay blades were stained at least when new, but perhaps were never re-stained.

I referred to the book "Keris and other Malay weapons" written by GB Gardner (Johore Civil service) in 1936 and it says on page 10:
"The keris blade is next laid in a trough containing boiling rice water, sulphur and salt, for three or four days. This blackens the steel but scarcely touches the iron. It attacks the marks of the welds, which show as tiny etched lines. When this damascened pattern is clear, the blade is cleaned with lime juice".

Although I do not fully agree with the chemical attack description by Gardner, it is clear that the new Malay blades were still stained at that time (1936) as said by Alan.
Regards

Sajen · 14th November 2017, 10:34 PM

Here is my remaining one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...69&postcount=2

By far not so nice like your one, 27 cm long inside sarung.

David · 14th November 2017, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here is my remaining one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...69&postcount=2

By far not so nice like your one, 27 cm long inside sarung.

Thanks for the add Detlef. Though the materials are not as high end, a very similar form of dress.

14th November 2017, 10:28 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Green, this is not a challenge, it is a question about something I do not know. You, and many other people have the belief that Malay keris were"never stained", and certainly this is the case at the present time. However, during my life time, and until now, I have had, and now have keris that were collected in old Malaya, before Malaya became Malaysia, and in Southern Thailand, Pattani. Some of these keris were collected circa 1920. These keris display both stained finish, and unstained finish. I have two Pattani keris that have original stain from circa 1920. I have just sold a Bugis keris collected in old Batavia (now Jakarta) in circa 1920, the blade was not stained when it was bought. So do we know when and where this ethic of "no stain" arose? It seems to me that throughout the "no stain" areas of today, that in the past it may have been a matter of personal preference as to whether a blade was stained or not.

15th November 2017, 12:03 AM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	Alan; A v good question and I'm no expert by a long shot. I hope malaysian keris experts that are present in the forum can give an answer . But I'll try to be brave and hazard an opinion. As far as I know keris culture in Peninsula Malaysia and Patani (Southern Thailand Muslim majority province) has never had the staining culture and technique used for cleaning and maintaining the keris the way the Javanese do. In fact the term 'Warangan' has no direct translation in the Malay language. And there are no warangan materials available in Malaysia and those that need to do warangan on their (newly acquired javanese ) blades have to get them from Java. In short warangan has never been a Malay keris culture. The malay/patani blades achieved their deep black coloration not because of warangan but initial treatment of the blade in acid bath and particular choice of iron used. As to the presence of waranged old Malay blades , it may well have been done by people who have Javanese influence.

15th November 2017, 03:54 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thanks for your opinion Green. In fact, in the 19th century pamor in Malay blades was brought out by the use of salt and sulphur, I've used this method, it both etches and stains, and on an old blade that has been previously stained it gives quite an effective finish. I do not know if the sulphur and salt method was the only method used. In respect of the word "warangan" it is a word that exists in Classical Malay, it is a loan word from Javanese, but in was in use in 19th century Malaya and is recognised as a part of the Classical Malay lexicon. It will be found in Wilkinson where the English meaning is given as "ratsbane; realgar". Warangan also can be found in Old Javanese, but there it means "a special colour". In Modern Javanese "warangan" means "arsenic", the correct word for staining a blade is "marangi", which can also mean to poison somebody or something. So it is not quite correct to say that "warangan" has never been a part Malay usage, it definitely has been, but I agree, it is not now. The evidence of two keris, collected in Pattani in about 1920, that are stained seems to indicate that 100 years ago blade staining was carried out in Pattani. This still leaves the question:- when did it become general practice not to stain, because the evidence seems to indicate that 100 years ago, blades from Malaya, Pattani, and even Sulawesi, could be either stained or unstained. Yes, possibly Javanese influence may have played a part in staining of blades. Javanese culture was the most influential culture in Maritime SE Asia for a very long time.But new Malay blades were subjected to the salt and sulphur treatment, so some Malay blades were stained at least when new, but perhaps were never re-stained.

15th November 2017, 04:23 AM	#7
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	Alan; Many thanks for your further clarification. It is interesting to note that you said 'warangan' has been a part of malay language usage. I as a Malay from Kelantan myself has never encounter this word until fairly recently when I got involved in keris collecting. Of course me not knowing this word does not mean that it was not a part of an original malay word and I am no linguist so I can not say you are wrong in this respect. I have to defer this point to other more learned people in the forum. (they must be lurking somewhere as "CCTV" ...)

14th November 2017, 10:34 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,333	Here is my remaining one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...69&postcount=2 By far not so nice like your one, 27 cm long inside sarung.