Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Hotspur · 14th November 2017, 12:24 AM

Do not get me started. Some images are too large to attach here.

I have a pennon/banner buried somewhere.

The Percies were often on the "wrong" side, even during the retreat from Lexigton and Concord but aside from the gunpowder plot generation, true and valiant warriors at war.

Cheers

GC aka Hotspur

The MDL photos courtesy of the Michael D Long pages more than a decade ago.

Also a documents on crescents. Not really topical to the Shotley Bridge discussion but still interesting.

I don't know if this Tudor era page will load (resized it) May be too small to read well. Another now resized, perhaps it will load. Phew, what a workout.

urbanspaceman · 14th November 2017, 01:53 AM

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

Hotspur · 14th November 2017, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

Oh goody, a gentle grammarian with a red pencil. Of dozens of edits i had made today, I left one for your attentions.

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman · 14th November 2017, 08:15 PM

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

kronckew · 14th November 2017, 08:34 PM

i found a reference to someone else suggesting extruding rollers to form the blade then heat treating it. which is another skill. heat treating these long thin blades without getting a warp would take real skill, even if you did do a finish grind. not much room for error at all. steel was variable, and temperatures were judged by eye, not electronics. no cnc machines in those days.

urbanspaceman · 14th November 2017, 09:01 PM

Yes, you're right: keeping it straight during the tempering must have been a major problem.
I have this 1850s court sword from the Coulaux Brothers in Klingenthal which has the most astonishing polished steel blade of the two narrow, one wide hollow variety. I find it difficult to put it down, it is such a marvellous thing to parry about with: stiff enough and sharp enough to penetrate, yet incredibly flexible and light; plus, perfectly balanced. I have a regular two-sided court sword of the same period from Solingen and it doesn't feel anywhere near as comfortable to hold. Plus, I don't know how Klingenthal produced such a brilliant polish to their steel, it looks like it is chrome plated; it's not, is it? I always thought chromium plating was developed in America in the 1920s... but!

kronckew · 14th November 2017, 09:26 PM

nickel plating has been around a long time: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/m...ating-history/

found online:

Commercial chrome plating was developed by Fink & Eldridge at Columbia University in 1924, and was based on a 1920 paper by Dr. George J. Sargent. In very simple terms, Sargent discovered that in order to electroplate chromium you need almost exactly 1 part of sulfuric acid to 100 parts of chromic acid. More sulfuric acid or less and it just won't plate. Because of this discovery, the most conventional chromium plating process is still called "the Sargent bath".

also thermal coating of metals with mercury amalgams has been used for millennia. usually by slaves as it tended to kill the artisans using it.

thermal heat treating is hardening the steel by heating it to the temperature where it loses it's nagnetic attraction, then quenching it.

too fast a quench can result in cracking - the dreaded 'ping' or warping. water is usually a no-no, and oil is used. this if done right produces a hard steel, but it's brittle. it must be tempered by reheating it to a much lower temp. (it depends on the type of and composition of the steel) than the hardening required to allow the stresses to work themselves out, allowing it to air cool. (steel can also be 'normalised' or 'annealed' back into a workable softer state by heating it to the non-magnetic temp then cooling it slowly, frequently packing it in insulation and waiting a few days to let it cool.) heating it too high can burn the steel, effectively removing the carbon, and turning it into iron instead of steel.

the hardening rather than the tempering usually produces the unwanted warps. i've heard a primitive blacksmith say if you use a horizontal quenching tank aligned north to south rather than a vertical one it won't warp. not sure how true that is.

the japanese took advantage of this by making their blades almost straight, then differentially hardening them which hardened the edge with a quick cooling, while the spine took longer, and actually self-tempered it all in the same step. it also produced a more noticeable but desired curve. mastering that along with the folding processes and inserting higher carbon steel edges into lower carbon spines was not an easy skill to learn.

p.s. - i've yet to hear them refer to tempering on 'forged in fire' on the history tv channel. probably why they snap so many blades.

Hotspur · 15th November 2017, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

Rolling mills come in during the industrial revolution. Why it took steam to develop it before water wheels, I am not sure but it also goes hand in hand with increases of the production of all metals. Ordinary tableware also becoming more regular items.

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 06:49 AM

The point is that the Solingen swordmakers had a device for turning out what some recognise as Biscayayne or Colichemarde blades for which there was an enormous demand in the rest of Europe. They talked of little wheels... which people thought meant grinding wheels but which like the rest of the story may have been misunderstood and what were thought to be grinders were perhaps small rolling wheels on the Rolling Mill.

Until I looked I didnt know that Leonardo da Vinci may well be credited with the first rolling mill device..seen below. The power for rolling mills was first the horse then water...then steam...etc

This may mean that hammers were not involved at least not initially. See https://www.innovaltec.com/history-metal-rolling-blog/

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 07:14 AM

In a further note at http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine...metal-history/

Quote"The first industrial plant of which we have certain news was used in 1615, to obtain lead and tin plates. Others followed, driven by animal or hydraulic force. Due to the increased possibility of obtaining ferrous material, the cold rolling of steel is simultaneously started. In 1682 a cold rolling mill of notable sizes was present in Newcastle in England. The first detailed description dates back to few years later; it is a plant in Galles (presumeably Wales)that processed 700 mm-long bars with 100 mm width, which could obtain sheets with 1500×700 mm sizes, it is the first certain witness of the steel rolling process to produce sheet metal, the driving force was provided by water wheels . Galles will remain the main European producer of thin sheets until the end of 1700. In the eighteenth century they also started rolling more complex shapes: rounds, squares, rails, double-T beams etc. It is essential to observe how the rolling complies with the demands of that age producing the requested materials: in 1600 lead sheets for the roof covers were highly requested and this possibility is then developed, at the end of 1700, in the middle of the industrial revolution, they needed rails and semi-finished steel products that therefore the rolling promptly satisfies."Unquote.

14th November 2017, 01:53 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Grammar Noun Grammar Rules: Singular = Lady. Plural = Ladies. Possessive Singular = Lady's. Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays). But... Proper noun grammar rules: Singular = Percy. Plural = Percys. Possessive Singular = Percy's. Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays). If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

14th November 2017, 08:15 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Rolling on I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas... I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

14th November 2017, 09:01 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Chromium plated? Yes, you're right: keeping it straight during the tempering must have been a major problem. I have this 1850s court sword from the Coulaux Brothers in Klingenthal which has the most astonishing polished steel blade of the two narrow, one wide hollow variety. I find it difficult to put it down, it is such a marvellous thing to parry about with: stiff enough and sharp enough to penetrate, yet incredibly flexible and light; plus, perfectly balanced. I have a regular two-sided court sword of the same period from Solingen and it doesn't feel anywhere near as comfortable to hold. Plus, I don't know how Klingenthal produced such a brilliant polish to their steel, it looks like it is chrome plated; it's not, is it? I always thought chromium plating was developed in America in the 1920s... but!

14th November 2017, 09:26 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	nickel plating has been around a long time: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/m...ating-history/ found online: Commercial chrome plating was developed by Fink & Eldridge at Columbia University in 1924, and was based on a 1920 paper by Dr. George J. Sargent. In very simple terms, Sargent discovered that in order to electroplate chromium you need almost exactly 1 part of sulfuric acid to 100 parts of chromic acid. More sulfuric acid or less and it just won't plate. Because of this discovery, the most conventional chromium plating process is still called "the Sargent bath". also thermal coating of metals with mercury amalgams has been used for millennia. usually by slaves as it tended to kill the artisans using it. thermal heat treating is hardening the steel by heating it to the temperature where it loses it's nagnetic attraction, then quenching it. too fast a quench can result in cracking - the dreaded 'ping' or warping. water is usually a no-no, and oil is used. this if done right produces a hard steel, but it's brittle. it must be tempered by reheating it to a much lower temp. (it depends on the type of and composition of the steel) than the hardening required to allow the stresses to work themselves out, allowing it to air cool. (steel can also be 'normalised' or 'annealed' back into a workable softer state by heating it to the non-magnetic temp then cooling it slowly, frequently packing it in insulation and waiting a few days to let it cool.) heating it too high can burn the steel, effectively removing the carbon, and turning it into iron instead of steel. the hardening rather than the tempering usually produces the unwanted warps. i've heard a primitive blacksmith say if you use a horizontal quenching tank aligned north to south rather than a vertical one it won't warp. not sure how true that is. the japanese took advantage of this by making their blades almost straight, then differentially hardening them which hardened the edge with a quick cooling, while the spine took longer, and actually self-tempered it all in the same step. it also produced a more noticeable but desired curve. mastering that along with the folding processes and inserting higher carbon steel edges into lower carbon spines was not an easy skill to learn. p.s. - i've yet to hear them refer to tempering on 'forged in fire' on the history tv channel. probably why they snap so many blades. Last edited by kronckew; 14th November 2017 at 09:49 PM.

15th November 2017, 06:49 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The point is that the Solingen swordmakers had a device for turning out what some recognise as Biscayayne or Colichemarde blades for which there was an enormous demand in the rest of Europe. They talked of little wheels... which people thought meant grinding wheels but which like the rest of the story may have been misunderstood and what were thought to be grinders were perhaps small rolling wheels on the Rolling Mill. Until I looked I didnt know that Leonardo da Vinci may well be credited with the first rolling mill device..seen below. The power for rolling mills was first the horse then water...then steam...etc This may mean that hammers were not involved at least not initially. See https://www.innovaltec.com/history-metal-rolling-blog/ Attached Images

14th November 2017, 08:34 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i found a reference to someone else suggesting extruding rollers to form the blade then heat treating it. which is another skill. heat treating these long thin blades without getting a warp would take real skill, even if you did do a finish grind. not much room for error at all. steel was variable, and temperatures were judged by eye, not electronics. no cnc machines in those days.

15th November 2017, 07:14 AM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	In a further note at http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine...metal-history/ Quote"The first industrial plant of which we have certain news was used in 1615, to obtain lead and tin plates. Others followed, driven by animal or hydraulic force. Due to the increased possibility of obtaining ferrous material, the cold rolling of steel is simultaneously started. In 1682 a cold rolling mill of notable sizes was present in Newcastle in England. The first detailed description dates back to few years later; it is a plant in Galles (presumeably Wales)that processed 700 mm-long bars with 100 mm width, which could obtain sheets with 1500×700 mm sizes, it is the first certain witness of the steel rolling process to produce sheet metal, the driving force was provided by water wheels . Galles will remain the main European producer of thin sheets until the end of 1700. In the eighteenth century they also started rolling more complex shapes: rounds, squares, rails, double-T beams etc. It is essential to observe how the rolling complies with the demands of that age producing the requested materials: in 1600 lead sheets for the roof covers were highly requested and this possibility is then developed, at the end of 1700, in the middle of the industrial revolution, they needed rails and semi-finished steel products that therefore the rolling promptly satisfies."Unquote.