African or Philippine ??

Sajen · 7th November 2017, 10:44 PM

Hi Drac2k,

you may be disappointed that nobody respond to your new pictures. This knife is a puzzle IMHO, I don't think it's Bicol, it's not Borneo I think but I am also not very confident that it is from one of the Igorot groups.

And I think that others are similar unsure from where exactly it coming, a reason that no further comment was given. The binding is very Moro but I don't have seen such a binding by Igorot weapons. The blade surface is a little bit to rough for Igorot (my feeling).
But it's very interesting and I would like to know from where it is exactly.

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 8th November 2017, 04:18 AM

Hello Detlef,
I was hoping that someone would have an "I know exactly what that is," moment and after a period of silence, I thought that maybe everyone agreed with my findings(just Kidding).I still feel that the one piece knife, steel socket handle is the clue and I have Bontoc axes with the same type of rough forging on the blades.
I got this piece at an auction, so as usual, there wasn't any concrete lineage on the item.

Tim Simmons · 8th November 2017, 10:23 AM

The way the blade has a forged socket for the handle is surely Philippine or Formosa style. You can see how long the socket is under the binding. It does look like some small Philippine knife related to those heavy blade things that are called Hingalung or something like that.

ausjulius · 17th November 2017, 06:27 AM

im pretty confident its not african.. and anyway you can know by the way its tempered..
it is with a socket like the ifugao knives.. and also like knives from taiwan..
if i was a guessing man id say its tribal people form luzon or some style of taiwan we had not see. but generally id not think taiwan..
either that or some other region of phillipines or indonesia of an isolated group we just havent observed their knives yet on this forum..

Ian · 17th November 2017, 12:28 PM

Hi drac:

I agree with Detlef--the additional pictures don't help much in identifying this unusual knife. For completeness, it would be nice to have the dimensions recorded here so that when another one comes along we will be better able to compare them.

Despite the method of blade construction, it looks neither Taiwanese nor Ifugao to me. Both of those cultures use strong rattan bands on their hilts, and I have never seen a cord wrap on such knives, nor a carved pommel like this one.

The forging of the blade is very crude, as if performed by a village blacksmith, and falls well short of the quality usually seen on knives from Taiwan or northern Luzon. It looks much like iron objects forged using a stone hammer and and a rock for an anvil. That said, the blade does taper in thickness from hilt to tip and the edge has been ground evenly in width, suggesting the smith had some skill and experience in making knives.

There are a number of small inhabited islands off northern Luzon and between the Philippines and Taiwan. I have no knowledge of the knives used by the small populations on some of these islands, but it is conceivable that this knife comes from one of those groups.

With regard to the shape of the blade, which might be called leaf-shaped, there is some passing resemblance to the Moro barung and to the Ifugao pinahig. However, both of these have a straighter spine to the blade than this example (see here for examples of the pinahig). There are other cultures that produce knives of similar shape, notably the so-called hudiedao of the "river pirates" of southern China and Vietnam (basically the South China Sea area). These have been discussed here under Chinese fighting knives. That similarity could possibly extend the search area for this knife.

Like many of the mystery knives that come up here, I think we will need to wait for further examples to emerge, perhaps with more details as to their origin.

Ian.

drac2k · 17th November 2017, 02:18 PM

I love a good mystery, except one where I never find the ending.
The crude forging on the blade doesn't bother me so much as identifying it as Philippine; in a previous post on this site, I provided("Philippine Axes, Bontok,"), examples of blades with similar forging marks and to fashion a steel socket must take some degree of skill.A point that bothered me and you rightly brought out was the wrap of the handle, which kind of puts a Titanic-size iceberg in the path of my theory.
The auction also had Eastern and Western Indian artifacts, so if we wanted to get really absurd, I could ask could it be a Tlingit blade........but I would never do that.

Ian · 17th November 2017, 04:30 PM

Patience my friend. I have some mysteries that have not been solved for 15+ years--like this one.

7th November 2017, 10:44 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hi Drac2k, you may be disappointed that nobody respond to your new pictures. This knife is a puzzle IMHO, I don't think it's Bicol, it's not Borneo I think but I am also not very confident that it is from one of the Igorot groups. And I think that others are similar unsure from where exactly it coming, a reason that no further comment was given. The binding is very Moro but I don't have seen such a binding by Igorot weapons. The blade surface is a little bit to rough for Igorot (my feeling). But it's very interesting and I would like to know from where it is exactly. Regards, Detlef

8th November 2017, 04:18 AM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Hello Detlef, I was hoping that someone would have an "I know exactly what that is," moment and after a period of silence, I thought that maybe everyone agreed with my findings(just Kidding).I still feel that the one piece knife, steel socket handle is the clue and I have Bontoc axes with the same type of rough forging on the blades. I got this piece at an auction, so as usual, there wasn't any concrete lineage on the item.

8th November 2017, 10:23 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	The way the blade has a forged socket for the handle is surely Philippine or Formosa style. You can see how long the socket is under the binding. It does look like some small Philippine knife related to those heavy blade things that are called Hingalung or something like that.

17th November 2017, 06:27 AM	#4
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 438	im pretty confident its not african.. and anyway you can know by the way its tempered.. it is with a socket like the ifugao knives.. and also like knives from taiwan.. if i was a guessing man id say its tribal people form luzon or some style of taiwan we had not see. but generally id not think taiwan.. either that or some other region of phillipines or indonesia of an isolated group we just havent observed their knives yet on this forum..

17th November 2017, 12:28 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi drac: I agree with Detlef--the additional pictures don't help much in identifying this unusual knife. For completeness, it would be nice to have the dimensions recorded here so that when another one comes along we will be better able to compare them. Despite the method of blade construction, it looks neither Taiwanese nor Ifugao to me. Both of those cultures use strong rattan bands on their hilts, and I have never seen a cord wrap on such knives, nor a carved pommel like this one. The forging of the blade is very crude, as if performed by a village blacksmith, and falls well short of the quality usually seen on knives from Taiwan or northern Luzon. It looks much like iron objects forged using a stone hammer and and a rock for an anvil. That said, the blade does taper in thickness from hilt to tip and the edge has been ground evenly in width, suggesting the smith had some skill and experience in making knives. There are a number of small inhabited islands off northern Luzon and between the Philippines and Taiwan. I have no knowledge of the knives used by the small populations on some of these islands, but it is conceivable that this knife comes from one of those groups. With regard to the shape of the blade, which might be called leaf-shaped, there is some passing resemblance to the Moro barung and to the Ifugao pinahig. However, both of these have a straighter spine to the blade than this example (see here for examples of the pinahig). There are other cultures that produce knives of similar shape, notably the so-called hudiedao of the "river pirates" of southern China and Vietnam (basically the South China Sea area). These have been discussed here under Chinese fighting knives. That similarity could possibly extend the search area for this knife. Like many of the mystery knives that come up here, I think we will need to wait for further examples to emerge, perhaps with more details as to their origin. Ian.

17th November 2017, 02:18 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	I love a good mystery, except one where I never find the ending. The crude forging on the blade doesn't bother me so much as identifying it as Philippine; in a previous post on this site, I provided("Philippine Axes, Bontok,"), examples of blades with similar forging marks and to fashion a steel socket must take some degree of skill.A point that bothered me and you rightly brought out was the wrap of the handle, which kind of puts a Titanic-size iceberg in the path of my theory. The auction also had Eastern and Western Indian artifacts, so if we wanted to get really absurd, I could ask could it be a Tlingit blade........but I would never do that.

17th November 2017, 04:30 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Patience my friend. I have some mysteries that have not been solved for 15+ years--like this one.