Blade identification needed on Moroccan nimcha sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th November 2017, 07:31 PM

Probably German blade See # 9 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=NIMCHA for the same crosses and moon mark.

ariel · 8th November 2017, 01:48 AM

Usually, such blades with 3 rather narrow fullers are of local manufacture.
It also seems to me that just at the level of stamps the fullers become somewhat curved: heated for stamping?
Kind of too crude for the Germans:-)

Roland_M · 8th November 2017, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Usually, such blades with 3 rather narrow fullers are of local manufacture.
It also seems to me that just at the level of stamps the fullers become somewhat curved: heated for stamping?
Kind of too crude for the Germans:-)

Hello Ariel,

as a German I'm with you. It is a well known fact, that Kaskara-blades for example were manufactured in Solingen and exported to Africa. But they never had such poorly shaped fullers, never, even not in wartimes.

Roland

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th November 2017, 04:23 PM

Yes that is possible although what if this was straight originally and was hammered into a curved shape.

There is however, no unsharpened section at the forte supporting the idea of a local blade and I tend to agree on the crosses and Dukari moon styles being local...

Kubur · 9th November 2017, 01:02 AM

Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local.

Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade?
Thanks

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th November 2017, 06:07 PM

Where were the blade making centres in Morocco please?

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2017, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Where were the blade making centres in Morocco please?

That is a very good question.
As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure there were 'blade making' centers in Morocco.
However, I did find the reference in "Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Mogul" by Anthony Tirri (2003), on p.25-26, where the author claims the primary manufacturing centers for swords were MEKNES, TETUAN and MARRAKESH

On page 19, the author notes that, "...while there was extensive use of IMPORTED WEAPON components, such as SWORD AND DAGGER BLADES, gun barrels or gunlocks, each region had particular style of overall weapon design, construction and decoration. Fez, Meknes, Marrakesh and Rabat had specific dagger designs and the regions of Tetuan, Taroudant, Ras el Oued and the Little Atlas mountain villages had identifiable gun styles".

The implication here is that while there were clearly local production centers for the making of the favored hilt, scabbard and for guns, the stocks....they clearly used imported working components and blades.

One unfortunate detraction in the Tirri reference, an otherwise beautifully produced book, is the lack of cited references which would have been most helpful in further checking into this topic .

Cerjak · 9th November 2017, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local.

Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade?
Thanks

yes of course I will add the lenght ASAP.
best
cerjak

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2017, 03:58 AM

In " Borders Away" , William Gilkerson, 1991, on p.88, there is a plate of mid 19th century cutlasses with this type of blades, three fullers, without the forte usually seen on European made blades. These seem to have had the celestial markings in the same location on the blade.

These kinds of blades were much favored in colonial markets, so these 'antique' style blades and so marked were produced well through the19thc. and Gilkerson notes that unknown numbers were produced for both East and West Indian markets.
These kinds of unrecorded productions and exports seem to have been quite rampant during the hyper development of Solingen's blade making during the Franco-Prussian war 1870-71, whose sudden end resulted in the excess of firms. It would seem that colonial markets offered convenient sources for products in volume.
Gilkerson states that Schnitzler & Kirshbaum of Solingen was one maker producing such early forms into the 19th century. There were certainly other makers and sub contractors producing these 'trade quality' blades, which probably did not necessarily meet standards held by the products for military contracts.

Though the Kirshbaum family had used the shooting star configuration in the early 19th c.(Bezdek, p.152), these particular groupings of moon and crosses are intended to replicate such antiquated markings of Germany on early blades. They represent imbued quality and the talismanic associations favored by tribal groups.

Briggs (1965) shows an example of nimcha with this blade type with triple fullers and lists it as European.

I am at this point unaware of locations in the Maghgreb where blades were made, and it seems that virtually all examples of nimcha have either blades of European origin, with some of Indian and other make.
It seems that Tirri may have noted some locations of edged weapon furbishing but I do not have that reference at the moment.

Cerjak · 10th November 2017, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local.

Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade?
Thanks

Dear Kubur

the blade lenght is 69 cm and 3.3 cm W near the hilt.
best
Cerjak

Kubur · 10th November 2017, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Dear Kubur

the blade lenght is 69 cm and 3.3 cm W near the hilt.
best
Cerjak

Hi Jean Luc

It's what i was thinking, a real nimcha a short sword
total length should be around 80cm?

Are you sure that your nimcha is Moroccan?

Kubur

7th November 2017, 07:31 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Probably German blade See # 9 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=NIMCHA for the same crosses and moon mark.

8th November 2017, 01:48 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Usually, such blades with 3 rather narrow fullers are of local manufacture. It also seems to me that just at the level of stamps the fullers become somewhat curved: heated for stamping? Kind of too crude for the Germans:-)

8th November 2017, 04:23 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Yes that is possible although what if this was straight originally and was hammered into a curved shape. There is however, no unsharpened section at the forte supporting the idea of a local blade and I tend to agree on the crosses and Dukari moon styles being local...

9th November 2017, 01:02 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local. Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade? Thanks

9th November 2017, 06:07 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Where were the blade making centres in Morocco please?

10th November 2017, 03:58 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	In " Borders Away" , William Gilkerson, 1991, on p.88, there is a plate of mid 19th century cutlasses with this type of blades, three fullers, without the forte usually seen on European made blades. These seem to have had the celestial markings in the same location on the blade. These kinds of blades were much favored in colonial markets, so these 'antique' style blades and so marked were produced well through the19thc. and Gilkerson notes that unknown numbers were produced for both East and West Indian markets. These kinds of unrecorded productions and exports seem to have been quite rampant during the hyper development of Solingen's blade making during the Franco-Prussian war 1870-71, whose sudden end resulted in the excess of firms. It would seem that colonial markets offered convenient sources for products in volume. Gilkerson states that Schnitzler & Kirshbaum of Solingen was one maker producing such early forms into the 19th century. There were certainly other makers and sub contractors producing these 'trade quality' blades, which probably did not necessarily meet standards held by the products for military contracts. Though the Kirshbaum family had used the shooting star configuration in the early 19th c.(Bezdek, p.152), these particular groupings of moon and crosses are intended to replicate such antiquated markings of Germany on early blades. They represent imbued quality and the talismanic associations favored by tribal groups. Briggs (1965) shows an example of nimcha with this blade type with triple fullers and lists it as European. I am at this point unaware of locations in the Maghgreb where blades were made, and it seems that virtually all examples of nimcha have either blades of European origin, with some of Indian and other make. It seems that Tirri may have noted some locations of edged weapon furbishing but I do not have that reference at the moment.