?1900s Indian Army saber?

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2017, 10:35 PM

Excellent Rob!!!
That makes perfect sense!! and thank you for spotting this,
I have found that pretty much there were two units using the M1853 pattern hilts per R. Wilkinson-Latham "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" (1973), ...these were one listed as 'Fanes Horse' which is shown as 17th lancers.
This unit was situated in Bengal and actually the unit known as Fanes Horse was the 19th Lancers. These were both Bengal units and I have always thought they used the1821 type hilts.

On the other one, 31st Duke of Connaughts Own Lancers, which was commanded by the Duke of Connaught, who was also governor of the Bombay Presidency.
This huge administrative region of the British Raj, extended from Bombay all the way to Sind which of course included Gujarat mid way in the time period we are considering, c. 1880-1905,
The Gujarati numerals would have likely been rack number.

RobT · 3rd November 2017, 12:37 AM

Jim,
Happy to help out. The same sort of thing goes on with a lot of the Royal Nepalese khukri (see Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walters). The battalion abbreviation plus the battalion unit and weapon numbers are frequently inscribed on the spine. Save for the 6, 7, and 10, the Devangari numbers used on the khukri are pretty much the same as the Gujarati numbers. As an interesting aside, it would appear that the so called Arabic numbers were actually a Hindu invention and that invention also included the concept (and digit) of zero. The Moslems picked-up the numbers from the Hindus and in turn gave them to the Christians.

Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 3rd November 2017, 01:14 AM

I meant to say that the Gujarati and Devangari numbers 6, 7, and 9 are dissimilar. Sorry about that.

Sincerely,
RobT

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2017, 01:21 PM

Very good. here we can see the late 19th century Lancers with the same sword. Front row second from the left.

What a shame that the owner or owners after me should damage the scabbard even more rather than try to repair or re-tip with metal.

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2017, 01:35 PM

WW1 19th lancers. That chap really does carry the sword in question.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd November 2017, 03:22 PM

Here is another one.Showing the later Major-General Richard Hilton together with some Indian officers. I dont know when the picture was taken, but it was before WWII started.
Richard Hilton did service in India for fifteen years, and was especially fond of working with the Indian regiments.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2017, 06:42 PM

Tim and Jen, thank you guys so much for these most helpful photos!!!!
It really means a lot to see the weapons we discuss in real time images and in use.

3rd November 2017, 12:37 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Glad I Could Help Jim, Happy to help out. The same sort of thing goes on with a lot of the Royal Nepalese khukri (see Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walters). The battalion abbreviation plus the battalion unit and weapon numbers are frequently inscribed on the spine. Save for the 6, 7, and 10, the Devangari numbers used on the khukri are pretty much the same as the Gujarati numbers. As an interesting aside, it would appear that the so called Arabic numbers were actually a Hindu invention and that invention also included the concept (and digit) of zero. The Moslems picked-up the numbers from the Hindus and in turn gave them to the Christians. Sincerely, RobT

3rd November 2017, 01:14 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Whoops I meant to say that the Gujarati and Devangari numbers 6, 7, and 9 are dissimilar. Sorry about that. Sincerely, RobT

3rd November 2017, 01:21 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Very good. here we can see the late 19th century Lancers with the same sword. Front row second from the left. What a shame that the owner or owners after me should damage the scabbard even more rather than try to repair or re-tip with metal. Attached Images

3rd November 2017, 01:35 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	WW1 19th lancers. That chap really does carry the sword in question. Attached Images

3rd November 2017, 03:22 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is another one.Showing the later Major-General Richard Hilton together with some Indian officers. I dont know when the picture was taken, but it was before WWII started. Richard Hilton did service in India for fifteen years, and was especially fond of working with the Indian regiments. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 3rd November 2017 at 04:29 PM.

2nd November 2017, 10:35 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent Rob!!! That makes perfect sense!! and thank you for spotting this, I have found that pretty much there were two units using the M1853 pattern hilts per R. Wilkinson-Latham "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" (1973), ...these were one listed as 'Fanes Horse' which is shown as 17th lancers. This unit was situated in Bengal and actually the unit known as Fanes Horse was the 19th Lancers. These were both Bengal units and I have always thought they used the1821 type hilts. On the other one, 31st Duke of Connaughts Own Lancers, which was commanded by the Duke of Connaught, who was also governor of the Bombay Presidency. This huge administrative region of the British Raj, extended from Bombay all the way to Sind which of course included Gujarat mid way in the time period we are considering, c. 1880-1905, The Gujarati numerals would have likely been rack number.

3rd November 2017, 06:42 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Tim and Jen, thank you guys so much for these most helpful photos!!!! It really means a lot to see the weapons we discuss in real time images and in use.