Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 2nd November 2017, 08:00 PM

Has anyone ever come across a Hounslow blade with a Fox or Wolf mark?
It seems odd that Solingen smiths in Hounslow didn't use the Passau wolf-mark but, allegedly, Shotley Bridge did.
I think this issue is beginning to point to the blades with the wolf as being smuggled in, then stamped Shotle Bridg to deflect away suspicion from the crime.
There's a lot of time and effort involved in applying all these marks.
I'm hoping my inspection of bulk collections of Shotley Bridge battlefield swords in the very near future will help to establish some acceptable facts.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd November 2017, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Has anyone ever come across a Hounslow blade with a Fox or Wolf mark?
It seems odd that Solingen smiths in Hounslow didn't use the Passau wolf-mark but, allegedly, Shotley Bridge did.
I think this issue is beginning to point to the blades with the wolf as being smuggled in, then stamped Shotle Bridg to deflect away suspicion from the crime.
There's a lot of time and effort involved in applying all these marks.
I'm hoping my inspection of bulk collections of Shotley Bridge battlefield swords in the very near future will help to establish some acceptable facts.

Salaams Kieth ~ It will be interesting to see this group of blades you speak of... The only fox I saw said to be Hounslow ...and with an H in it... is above at #206 last photo, though it is a picture repeated many times around the web...but its the only one I have ever seen.

urbanspaceman · 3rd November 2017, 12:53 PM

Hello Ibrahiim. Does the sword with that alleged Hounslow mark tally with the date of Hounslow production? Somewhere down the line (in my case a very short line) I read an emphatic declaration that Hounslow never used such a mark. I thought that "Me Fecit", or something of the sort, was used when wishing to identify a Hounslow worker. I still keep coming back to this 'time and effort' issue of marking swords: if you are paid to produce as many blades as possible in as short a time as possible, for battlefield weapons, then I would have thought a single, simple tang stamp, or such, was the best you would consider. If you were producing something for a London cutler to retail then the prestige of the workmanship warranted the work involved in sophisticated emblems.
I will know more when I've surveyed the armouries of some of our castles up here. We have a lot! This was not a comfortable place to retire-to for most of its history. I grew up on a 1930s built street that had, until 1932, a castle at both ends, with a provenance dating back to pre. Norman times in one case, and Norman in another (that one is still in existence) . Dig down anywhere round there and you would probably find a Viking sword eventually. But I digress...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th November 2017, 01:21 PM

Not quite since Me Fecit or made in...was used in Solingen as well... and in Hounslow..See

https://stmargarets.london/archives/...ow_swords.html

However, you will see the same animal with an H in it on the above site... It appears repeated all over the web but I have never seen another.

Other Me Fecit examples ~ 'PETER BRABENDER ME FECIT IN SOLINGEN'

"CLEMENS HORN ME FECIT SOLINGEN.

“JOSEPH JENCKES ME FECIT HOUNSLO.

An English Basket shown below is from Hounslow with ME FECIT HOUNSLO on the blade.

urbanspaceman · 4th November 2017, 03:23 PM

I was not associating 'me fecit' exclusively with Hounslow, merely that many verified examples had that marking - or the bunch of grapes; and, as you said: the 'H in the fox' is simply not seen other than in that one example. Again, I am curious to know whether the sword relates to the chronology of the Hounslow industry; do we know what the rest of it looks like?

That 'H in the fox' appears to be quite singular - despite its ubiquity (no oxymoron intended); I really find it hard to associate it with Hounslow though, far more realistic to assign it to Harvey in Birmingham, given the subsequent development by SH. Are there no Birmingham industry experts reading this who could shed light on the development of the mark by WH and/or SH?

A curious comment at the end of the St Margaret's article Ibrahiim: I've not seen mention of the business of the rolling-mill (or roll forge) patent taken over to Solingen to WKC, other than the time I referenced and questioned it earlier this year.
I said at that time, even Andre Wilms did not enlighten me; and I've not had any response to the question I pointedly posted in this thread or from the Solingen Blade Museum.

You know, when you think that we are knee-deep in castles in this country, and I know Alnwick - as an example - has huge collections of armour, I don't understand why a consensus has not been made by now of who has what - where. Anyone out there, of retirement age or independent means, fancy such an engrossing and immortalising endeavour?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th November 2017, 07:48 PM

Salaams Kieth~Regarding the above and #207. Yes it seems a huge raveled up mix of incredible puzzles, lies and deceit...I think a lot of it was done to throw the opposition...Misinformation etc

On #207 I think my wild guess may hold some water however, in that the only way W HARVEY marked blade could appear on a hilt many decades its junior (if that is a W Harvey that is) Is because it is a rehilt. Samuel Harvey had gone bankrupt ...and the firm was taken over by his son Samuel (same Christian name) then there was this appearance of the W Harvey artwork clearly indicating that who ever W Harvey was ...he was into swords and in Birmingham. Possibly the son of the second S Harvey...untraceable.

urbanspaceman · 5th November 2017, 08:21 PM

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

2nd November 2017, 08:00 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 681	Hounslow Has anyone ever come across a Hounslow blade with a Fox or Wolf mark? It seems odd that Solingen smiths in Hounslow didn't use the Passau wolf-mark but, allegedly, Shotley Bridge did. I think this issue is beginning to point to the blades with the wolf as being smuggled in, then stamped Shotle Bridg to deflect away suspicion from the crime. There's a lot of time and effort involved in applying all these marks. I'm hoping my inspection of bulk collections of Shotley Bridge battlefield swords in the very near future will help to establish some acceptable facts.

3rd November 2017, 12:53 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 681	Hounslow Hello Ibrahiim. Does the sword with that alleged Hounslow mark tally with the date of Hounslow production? Somewhere down the line (in my case a very short line) I read an emphatic declaration that Hounslow never used such a mark. I thought that "Me Fecit", or something of the sort, was used when wishing to identify a Hounslow worker. I still keep coming back to this 'time and effort' issue of marking swords: if you are paid to produce as many blades as possible in as short a time as possible, for battlefield weapons, then I would have thought a single, simple tang stamp, or such, was the best you would consider. If you were producing something for a London cutler to retail then the prestige of the workmanship warranted the work involved in sophisticated emblems. I will know more when I've surveyed the armouries of some of our castles up here. We have a lot! This was not a comfortable place to retire-to for most of its history. I grew up on a 1930s built street that had, until 1932, a castle at both ends, with a provenance dating back to pre. Norman times in one case, and Norman in another (that one is still in existence) . Dig down anywhere round there and you would probably find a Viking sword eventually. But I digress...

4th November 2017, 01:21 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Not quite since Me Fecit or made in...was used in Solingen as well... and in Hounslow..See https://stmargarets.london/archives/...ow_swords.html However, you will see the same animal with an H in it on the above site... It appears repeated all over the web but I have never seen another. Other Me Fecit examples ~ 'PETER BRABENDER ME FECIT IN SOLINGEN' "CLEMENS HORN ME FECIT SOLINGEN. “JOSEPH JENCKES ME FECIT HOUNSLO. An English Basket shown below is from Hounslow with ME FECIT HOUNSLO on the blade. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th November 2017 at 01:35 PM.

4th November 2017, 03:23 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 681	Satanic Mills I was not associating 'me fecit' exclusively with Hounslow, merely that many verified examples had that marking - or the bunch of grapes; and, as you said: the 'H in the fox' is simply not seen other than in that one example. Again, I am curious to know whether the sword relates to the chronology of the Hounslow industry; do we know what the rest of it looks like? That 'H in the fox' appears to be quite singular - despite its ubiquity (no oxymoron intended); I really find it hard to associate it with Hounslow though, far more realistic to assign it to Harvey in Birmingham, given the subsequent development by SH. Are there no Birmingham industry experts reading this who could shed light on the development of the mark by WH and/or SH? A curious comment at the end of the St Margaret's article Ibrahiim: I've not seen mention of the business of the rolling-mill (or roll forge) patent taken over to Solingen to WKC, other than the time I referenced and questioned it earlier this year. I said at that time, even Andre Wilms did not enlighten me; and I've not had any response to the question I pointedly posted in this thread or from the Solingen Blade Museum. You know, when you think that we are knee-deep in castles in this country, and I know Alnwick - as an example - has huge collections of armour, I don't understand why a consensus has not been made by now of who has what - where. Anyone out there, of retirement age or independent means, fancy such an engrossing and immortalising endeavour?

5th November 2017, 08:21 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 681	Passau wolf I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge. Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

4th November 2017, 07:48 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Kieth~Regarding the above and #207. Yes it seems a huge raveled up mix of incredible puzzles, lies and deceit...I think a lot of it was done to throw the opposition...Misinformation etc On #207 I think my wild guess may hold some water however, in that the only way W HARVEY marked blade could appear on a hilt many decades its junior (if that is a W Harvey that is) Is because it is a rehilt. Samuel Harvey had gone bankrupt ...and the firm was taken over by his son Samuel (same Christian name) then there was this appearance of the W Harvey artwork clearly indicating that who ever W Harvey was ...he was into swords and in Birmingham. Possibly the son of the second S Harvey...untraceable.