Stubby Sabre with blade marks

fernando · 30th October 2017, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... sabres of the french were copied by the USA, and a number were actually imported from france.

Sure thing !

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2017, 06:54 PM

Good point Mark, the Confederates were indeed looking for swords from any source, and I have seen news ads for people to bring in their swords 'for the cause'. They were of course far from industrialized and there were swords produced in farm equipment and tool manufacturers, such as Nashville Plow Works who produced limited numbers of swords.
It has often been held that 'Dog River' swords were essentially Confederate used swords of sundry sources, or 'unknown', however there really was a facility on Dog River which did assemble or furbish swords.

We cannot forget Mexico, who did of course have profound French influence and in mid to third quarter 19th century used hilts of the French style as used by US forces in the M1840 and M1860 hilts. I have a heavy cutlass type sabre similar with the 'M1840' type hilt from Republic of Mexico and so marked on the blade.

The hilt on this example is 'of the form' but does not have the bars as the other, just one as I can see. The blade seems of course 18th c. but these were diffused all over during the American Revolution.

The 44 seems a 'rack number' or inventory mark.

Jon MB · 2nd November 2017, 03:02 PM

Thanks for your input guys! All very handy comments & further pointers for research.

Any further comments on the blade markings though?

The piece came from Bristol, in the UK. Not sure that much can be inferred from that though...

Rick · 2nd November 2017, 03:27 PM

Why has no one considered the idea that this blade may be of Indian origin?
There are very similar marks and fullering on an Indian straight tulwar in my collection. Granted they're a bit different from the marks shown; but possibly other Indian smiths executed them a little better.
The intent at least seems to be there.

fernando · 2nd November 2017, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Why has no one considered the idea that this blade may be of Indian origin.
There are very similar marks and fullering on an Indian straight tulwar in my collection?

Wise words, Rick. I could swear i saw marks of this type in Asian blades; just don't recall where

.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2017, 05:31 PM

Well noted Rick, and actually looking at those distinctive 'twig' or marca mosca type markings, used in these multiple configurations reminded me of European blades, particularly Italian, which have been seen on a number of 'firangi'.

As we dont really know for sure what colonial setting this composite was assembled in, it is hard to say what the source may have been for the blade. What seems somewhat clear is that it is of likely latter 18th century. Meanwhile the hilt is of the type of primarily French style of around 1820s in thier cavalry swords, the distictive pommel is known as the 'phrygian helmet' style in many of the references and was copied by the US in thier M1840 and M1860 patterns of cavalry sabres,

On the example you have posted Rick, those stippled letters are indeed Indian script and denote arsenal markings well known from the Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan. They are indeed mindful of these curious multiple markings in grouping which actually originate from such blade markings uaed early in North Italy, and diffused widely through the Genoan trade into Black Sea regions.

2nd November 2017, 03:27 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Married? Why has no one considered the idea that this blade may be of Indian origin? There are very similar marks and fullering on an Indian straight tulwar in my collection. Granted they're a bit different from the marks shown; but possibly other Indian smiths executed them a little better. The intent at least seems to be there. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 2nd November 2017 at 06:20 PM. Reason: punctuation

31st October 2017, 06:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Good point Mark, the Confederates were indeed looking for swords from any source, and I have seen news ads for people to bring in their swords 'for the cause'. They were of course far from industrialized and there were swords produced in farm equipment and tool manufacturers, such as Nashville Plow Works who produced limited numbers of swords. It has often been held that 'Dog River' swords were essentially Confederate used swords of sundry sources, or 'unknown', however there really was a facility on Dog River which did assemble or furbish swords. We cannot forget Mexico, who did of course have profound French influence and in mid to third quarter 19th century used hilts of the French style as used by US forces in the M1840 and M1860 hilts. I have a heavy cutlass type sabre similar with the 'M1840' type hilt from Republic of Mexico and so marked on the blade. The hilt on this example is 'of the form' but does not have the bars as the other, just one as I can see. The blade seems of course 18th c. but these were diffused all over during the American Revolution. The 44 seems a 'rack number' or inventory mark.

2nd November 2017, 03:02 PM	#3
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Thanks for your input guys! All very handy comments & further pointers for research. Any further comments on the blade markings though? The piece came from Bristol, in the UK. Not sure that much can be inferred from that though...

2nd November 2017, 05:31 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Well noted Rick, and actually looking at those distinctive 'twig' or marca mosca type markings, used in these multiple configurations reminded me of European blades, particularly Italian, which have been seen on a number of 'firangi'. As we dont really know for sure what colonial setting this composite was assembled in, it is hard to say what the source may have been for the blade. What seems somewhat clear is that it is of likely latter 18th century. Meanwhile the hilt is of the type of primarily French style of around 1820s in thier cavalry swords, the distictive pommel is known as the 'phrygian helmet' style in many of the references and was copied by the US in thier M1840 and M1860 patterns of cavalry sabres, On the example you have posted Rick, those stippled letters are indeed Indian script and denote arsenal markings well known from the Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan. They are indeed mindful of these curious multiple markings in grouping which actually originate from such blade markings uaed early in North Italy, and diffused widely through the Genoan trade into Black Sea regions.