help identifying this dagger

Montino Bourbon · 17th January 2005, 05:54 AM

Dear friends; I have had this dagger in my family for a long time; can anyone help me identify it, and give a possible provenance?
Thank you!

Federico · 17th January 2005, 07:38 AM

A very interesting dagger. Can you identify the handle material, horn, wood, etc...? Is the brass ferrule brazed (eg. can you see a seam), or is it one piece? Any more on its history in your family?

Montino Bourbon · 17th January 2005, 08:34 AM

The handle seems to be alternating rings of material; I don't know what it is, although tomorrow I will post a close-up of it. there are layers of different colors of material, with very thin metal between them, and the whole handle is fluted. I can't tell how the ferrule is attached. The dagger has been in my family since I was little, more than 60 years; it's possible that it has been in the family a long time. My family is a very old Italian family; on my father's side we trace our ancestry back to 907 C.E. for our present last name, (I have the family archives in my possession, but we are well known historically in Italy), farther if you go back to Roman times, and I have been told that we have Etruscan ancestry as well. It seems to be really nice steel, with an excellent armor-piercing point.

Montino Bourbon · 17th January 2005, 08:38 AM

I just examined the ferrule closely; it does not look like it has a seam. I'll post more pics tomorrow.

Rich · 17th January 2005, 11:18 AM

I think this is a style called a Mediterranian dagger.
Likely from southern Europe, French, Spain or Italy.
The style was around a long time, ca 1500 - 1900.
Hard to guess a date, but a nice looking piece.

Rich S

Yannis · 17th January 2005, 11:58 AM

It is mediteranian dagger. Italian, late 18th century, according to "Weapons" (The Diagram Group) encyclopedia, page 33.

RSWORD · 17th January 2005, 02:30 PM

Thank you for posting such a lovely knife. I really like the workmanship of the blade. It appears to be quite well made.

tom hyle · 17th January 2005, 03:12 PM

Beautiful, and correctly identified. I'll add that it is fairly likely though by no means certain to have been locally produced. The sculptural detail on the blade is sometimes used as a thumb-rest.

Montino Bourbon · 17th January 2005, 05:10 PM

You gentlemen are terrific! I hope that I can be as helpful to you when I get the chance.

Here is a close-up of the handle; I suspect that this dagger has been with my family for a while, since I doubt that my father or grandfather would have purchased such an object.

wolviex · 17th January 2005, 07:39 PM

Oh, how nice to see some European arms on this forum from time to time

. It is Mediterranian knife indeed, it's seems to be very popular in Italy. Try to explore some Italian arms & armour auctions and I think you'll find plenty of similiar weapons (in the past I saw on Czerny's auctions few of them).
Yannis: are you sure this is end of the 18th century? Can I shyly suggest mid 19th century? It's not expert thought, just a feeling when you look at the sheath, at brass fitings, etc.
By the way, aren't similiar knives mostly seen without scabbards nowadays? Anyway very interesting object, and thank you for sharing with us with this piece of European history

PS. Congratulation long history of your family, I love genealogy, but somehow I'm happy my familiy roots riching "only" to 14th century

tom hyle · 18th January 2005, 01:57 AM

Looks like lead spacers in the horn handle, as common on Somali billao.

Yannis · 18th January 2005, 02:16 AM

wolviex

You are right, scabbard is looking more 19th century but I was intentified the dagger by the book I mention before. As we know scabards were change often. Also as Rich notice this form of dagger was in fashion for 4 centuries.

But what a perfect dagger! And as a family heritage it is priceless.

Montino: If I was you I could not trade this dagger for nothing. Enjoy it

17th January 2005, 05:54 AM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	help identifying this dagger Dear friends; I have had this dagger in my family for a long time; can anyone help me identify it, and give a possible provenance? Thank you! Attached Images

17th January 2005, 05:10 PM	#9
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	You gentlemen are terrific! I hope that I can be as helpful to you when I get the chance. Here is a close-up of the handle; I suspect that this dagger has been with my family for a while, since I doubt that my father or grandfather would have purchased such an object. Attached Images

17th January 2005, 07:38 AM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	A very interesting dagger. Can you identify the handle material, horn, wood, etc...? Is the brass ferrule brazed (eg. can you see a seam), or is it one piece? Any more on its history in your family?

17th January 2005, 08:34 AM	#3
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	The handle seems to be alternating rings of material; I don't know what it is, although tomorrow I will post a close-up of it. there are layers of different colors of material, with very thin metal between them, and the whole handle is fluted. I can't tell how the ferrule is attached. The dagger has been in my family since I was little, more than 60 years; it's possible that it has been in the family a long time. My family is a very old Italian family; on my father's side we trace our ancestry back to 907 C.E. for our present last name, (I have the family archives in my possession, but we are well known historically in Italy), farther if you go back to Roman times, and I have been told that we have Etruscan ancestry as well. It seems to be really nice steel, with an excellent armor-piercing point.

17th January 2005, 08:38 AM	#4
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I just examined the ferrule closely; it does not look like it has a seam. I'll post more pics tomorrow.

17th January 2005, 11:18 AM	#5
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I think this is a style called a Mediterranian dagger. Likely from southern Europe, French, Spain or Italy. The style was around a long time, ca 1500 - 1900. Hard to guess a date, but a nice looking piece. Rich S

17th January 2005, 11:58 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	It is mediteranian dagger. Italian, late 18th century, according to "Weapons" (The Diagram Group) encyclopedia, page 33.

17th January 2005, 02:30 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Thank you for posting such a lovely knife. I really like the workmanship of the blade. It appears to be quite well made.

17th January 2005, 03:12 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Beautiful, and correctly identified. I'll add that it is fairly likely though by no means certain to have been locally produced. The sculptural detail on the blade is sometimes used as a thumb-rest.

17th January 2005, 07:39 PM	#10
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Oh, how nice to see some European arms on this forum from time to time . It is Mediterranian knife indeed, it's seems to be very popular in Italy. Try to explore some Italian arms & armour auctions and I think you'll find plenty of similiar weapons (in the past I saw on Czerny's auctions few of them). Yannis: are you sure this is end of the 18th century? Can I shyly suggest mid 19th century? It's not expert thought, just a feeling when you look at the sheath, at brass fitings, etc. By the way, aren't similiar knives mostly seen without scabbards nowadays? Anyway very interesting object, and thank you for sharing with us with this piece of European history PS. Congratulation long history of your family, I love genealogy, but somehow I'm happy my familiy roots riching "only" to 14th century

18th January 2005, 01:57 AM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Looks like lead spacers in the horn handle, as common on Somali billao.

18th January 2005, 02:16 AM	#12
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	wolviex You are right, scabbard is looking more 19th century but I was intentified the dagger by the book I mention before. As we know scabards were change often. Also as Rich notice this form of dagger was in fashion for 4 centuries. But what a perfect dagger! And as a family heritage it is priceless. Montino: If I was you I could not trade this dagger for nothing. Enjoy it