African or Philippine ??

shayde78 · 29th October 2017, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The handle looks like it's wrapped with the kind of wire one uses to hang pictures; or is it just a wire loop around the pommel?

Is there a ferrule or is it just (wire?) wrapping?

It looks like the grip may be wrapped with insulated electrical wire, and that the end at the blade junction has been stripped to reveal the copper core, appearing as a ferrule of sorts.

Sajen · 29th October 2017, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

It looks like the grip may be wrapped with insulated electrical wire, and that the end at the blade junction has been stripped to reveal the copper core, appearing as a ferrule of sorts.

To me it look like like some sort of blackened twine but just let's wait until Drac2k has it in it's hands, all other will be pure speculation!

Ian · 29th October 2017, 05:03 PM

Guys:

I think we have enough pictures here to make a reasonably confident identification of the animal whose head adorns the end of the hilt of the mystery knife. I believe it is a proboscis monkey (Nasalis navatus) which is an old world, tree dwelling monkey that coexists with the orangutan in Borneo. A wikipedia entry appears here.

The male of this species grows a particularly bulbous nose, unique among non-human primates, that is thought to attract a female mate. This gives the animal a human-like facial appearance, and indeed the Indonesians use the name monyet belanda ("Dutch monkey") or orang belanda ("Dutchman") to describe the similarity in appearance to the Dutch because each had such a large nose!

If we look at the two close-up views of the knife's pommel, (Figures 1 and 2) attached here, Figure 1 shows many of this monkey's features in detail--the carving is actually clearly done in representing this animal. In Figure 1 we see the bulbous nose (A) with a clear demarkation from the upper lip (B), a clear engraving of an ear pinna set well back on the skull(C), and a flat top to the cranium. The shape on the pinna is typical of humans and other primates.

Figure 2 shows the pommel from the front and emphasizes how separate the nose bulb is from upper lip, with a clearly carved groove (A), widely spaced eyes with a clear angle between the brow and the nose (B), and again the engraved outline of the ear pinna on the other side.

Compare these features with two pictures (attached) of proboscis monkeys. The similarities are quite striking, even down to the flat top of the cranium.

The animal depicted is clearly not a dog, although there is some superficial resemblance as Detlef noted.

Given the origin of this species of monkey, I would suggest that the knife originates from Borneo, somewhere within the distribution of the proboscis monkey.

Ian.

.

drac2k · 30th October 2017, 01:10 PM

Certainly an interesting theory and well argued.

drac2k · 5th November 2017, 09:47 PM

I just got the blade in today and I am a little more convinced that the item comes from the Philippines.
First, the handle is of the socket design used by the Ifugao and the aboriginal Taiwanese in their knives; I know this because of the construction at the base of the blade and I placed a very strong magnet on the handle to show that it was steel.A wooden figure(effigy?), has been inserted into the handle, which is wrapped with an organic fiber.
My second reason why I believe this to possibly be Ifugao or some similar tribe is that I see the same type of forging on this blade as on their blades.
It is a fairly heavy weapon, very sharp on the belly as well as on the top, about 40% from the tip.It looks like a barong or maybe a short panabas.

Sajen · 7th November 2017, 10:44 PM

Hi Drac2k,

you may be disappointed that nobody respond to your new pictures. This knife is a puzzle IMHO, I don't think it's Bicol, it's not Borneo I think but I am also not very confident that it is from one of the Igorot groups.

And I think that others are similar unsure from where exactly it coming, a reason that no further comment was given. The binding is very Moro but I don't have seen such a binding by Igorot weapons. The blade surface is a little bit to rough for Igorot (my feeling).
But it's very interesting and I would like to know from where it is exactly.

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 8th November 2017, 04:18 AM

Hello Detlef,
I was hoping that someone would have an "I know exactly what that is," moment and after a period of silence, I thought that maybe everyone agreed with my findings(just Kidding).I still feel that the one piece knife, steel socket handle is the clue and I have Bontoc axes with the same type of rough forging on the blades.
I got this piece at an auction, so as usual, there wasn't any concrete lineage on the item.

29th October 2017, 05:03 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Guys: I think we have enough pictures here to make a reasonably confident identification of the animal whose head adorns the end of the hilt of the mystery knife. I believe it is a proboscis monkey (Nasalis navatus) which is an old world, tree dwelling monkey that coexists with the orangutan in Borneo. A wikipedia entry appears here. The male of this species grows a particularly bulbous nose, unique among non-human primates, that is thought to attract a female mate. This gives the animal a human-like facial appearance, and indeed the Indonesians use the name monyet belanda ("Dutch monkey") or orang belanda ("Dutchman") to describe the similarity in appearance to the Dutch because each had such a large nose! If we look at the two close-up views of the knife's pommel, (Figures 1 and 2) attached here, Figure 1 shows many of this monkey's features in detail--the carving is actually clearly done in representing this animal. In Figure 1 we see the bulbous nose (A) with a clear demarkation from the upper lip (B), a clear engraving of an ear pinna set well back on the skull(C), and a flat top to the cranium. The shape on the pinna is typical of humans and other primates. Figure 2 shows the pommel from the front and emphasizes how separate the nose bulb is from upper lip, with a clearly carved groove (A), widely spaced eyes with a clear angle between the brow and the nose (B), and again the engraved outline of the ear pinna on the other side. Compare these features with two pictures (attached) of proboscis monkeys. The similarities are quite striking, even down to the flat top of the cranium. The animal depicted is clearly not a dog, although there is some superficial resemblance as Detlef noted. Given the origin of this species of monkey, I would suggest that the knife originates from Borneo, somewhere within the distribution of the proboscis monkey. Ian. . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 29th October 2017 at 05:14 PM.

5th November 2017, 09:47 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	I just got the blade in today and I am a little more convinced that the item comes from the Philippines. First, the handle is of the socket design used by the Ifugao and the aboriginal Taiwanese in their knives; I know this because of the construction at the base of the blade and I placed a very strong magnet on the handle to show that it was steel.A wooden figure(effigy?), has been inserted into the handle, which is wrapped with an organic fiber. My second reason why I believe this to possibly be Ifugao or some similar tribe is that I see the same type of forging on this blade as on their blades. It is a fairly heavy weapon, very sharp on the belly as well as on the top, about 40% from the tip.It looks like a barong or maybe a short panabas. Attached Images

30th October 2017, 01:10 PM	#4
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Certainly an interesting theory and well argued.

7th November 2017, 10:44 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hi Drac2k, you may be disappointed that nobody respond to your new pictures. This knife is a puzzle IMHO, I don't think it's Bicol, it's not Borneo I think but I am also not very confident that it is from one of the Igorot groups. And I think that others are similar unsure from where exactly it coming, a reason that no further comment was given. The binding is very Moro but I don't have seen such a binding by Igorot weapons. The blade surface is a little bit to rough for Igorot (my feeling). But it's very interesting and I would like to know from where it is exactly. Regards, Detlef

8th November 2017, 04:18 AM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Hello Detlef, I was hoping that someone would have an "I know exactly what that is," moment and after a period of silence, I thought that maybe everyone agreed with my findings(just Kidding).I still feel that the one piece knife, steel socket handle is the clue and I have Bontoc axes with the same type of rough forging on the blades. I got this piece at an auction, so as usual, there wasn't any concrete lineage on the item.