2 Victorian Lances

Dmitry · 21st October 2017, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.

My guess is that they were deployed against poorly-armed and poorly-trained opponents for a reason. Why waste expensive ammunition and wear and tear of the firearms, when a lancer can pick as many running natives as he wishes?

I just bought a lot of three lances myself, haven't looked at them properly yet. This is a a useful thread.

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2017, 12:10 AM

This is a fascinating topic and glad to see it back up!
Actually seeing the bit about the pennons purpose being for soaking up blood seems kind of like so many other 'explanations' for features on weapons in the eventual 'lore' that evolves.

Interesting that the source for this is said to come from RCMP history. I recall many years ago seeing one of their music parade events with laces drill...it was spectacular. These forces are in themselves most impressive and quite historically profound.
However it seems that they really never used the lance but for performances from c. 1870s and to notably impress American Indian tribes etc. They may have had some use in WWI, but while the unit was certainly there, unclear on how much use the lance had.

In my opinion, the 'blood' element may well have come from the long tradition of the British 16th Lancers, who fought Sikh forces at Aliwal in 1846. Apparently after the battle the pennons of the lances were so blood soaked and encrusted, that the regiment traditionally crimped their pennons 16 times, in remembrance of that terrible battle.

It seems that the Canadians adopted the crimping of the pennons as they took to use of the lance in 1870s and later Queen Victoria took exception to their use of that feature in the pennons. Perhaps there had been some earlier connection between the 16th and the 5th who later formed part of the Canadian brigade in WWI as they were amalgamated together in 1922.
Whatever the case, the blood soaked pennons of Aliwal may be the source of this notion.

In actuality, the pennon has been suggested as more regimentally symbolic and for parade type purposes than such matters. In WWI, the German lancers left their pennons off during battle.

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2017, 03:00 AM

Continuing:
On the practical and physiological aspects of the lance.

These weapons, while psychologically terrifying in an advance formation of cavalry, their impact was quickly ended once in the melee. These were useless in the ensuing combat, and even to drop them and draw swords would put the rider in immediate vulnerability.
Because of the horrific wounding potential of the lance, these horsemen were despised and vehemently attacked, never receiving quarter.

They were cumbersome even in normal maneuvers, and could be dangerous to other riders in formation. During the Civil War, an attempt was made to duplicate European lancer regiments, I believe it was a Pennsylvania regt.
The results were horrendous, and the troopers were their own worst enemy.
I believe the idea was abandoned and the troops back to regular cavalry.

The idea of lances ended up with blood hampering their grip is no more likely than from a sword or any edged weapon. Lances had their grips about half way down the shaft, suggesting that their use was not as much a full length penetration thrust, but more of a jabbing action. The idea was not to impale a victim on the lance, obviously rendering the rider weaponless or unhorsing him....but to inflict lacerating wounds at key locations.

At San Pascual, in California during the Mexican-American war, the dragoon forces attacked by Mexican lancers often had as many as 13 or more wounds. Actually they were unable to load their guns in the darkness and place the caps, while the Mexican lancers simply chose their targets . They used jabbing thrusts so as not to lose their weapons.

The notion of the pennon causing mortal sepsis by its entry into the wound is a valid observation, but penetration of that depth and with that pennon now an obstruction in retraction from the wound, something that probably led to some cavalry removing them prior to combat.

I think one of the most notable instances of lore about lances is the one about Polish lancer units attacking German tanks with these in WWII. This was pure propaganda, and while the unit was a lancer named unit, and they did have swords, they did not attack the tanks, especially not with lances.
They did use swords as German's exited disabled or stopped tanks though.
German Wehrmacht also had cavalry using sabres.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd October 2017, 09:35 PM

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.
Here is some artwork ~The black and white is Elandslaagt in the Boer War..and the other is Omdurman. The lance head and base are of the style made by Wilkinson.

kronckew · 23rd October 2017, 11:02 PM

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.

one of the last true cavalry charges, in early ww1, a group of british cavalry drew sabres & charged a group from a german uhlan, brits has swords, the germans had the steel lance. they were a new unit and apparently not well trained, they broke and ran, only being saved when the survivors managed to get behind a farmer's barbed wire fence that stopped the pursuing brits as the horses refused to jump it.

and the poles never charged tanks with their lances in ww2 as german propaganda suggested...they did successfully charge a complacent german encampment that hadn't posted proper sentries and did great damage to it, and retreated in good order when some armour turned up. their lances were back in HQ for parades, they used firearms (and sabres) and were used more as mounted infantry. there were just not enough of them, especially with no air cover, and the russians attacking from the other side to aid their german allies.

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2017, 04:22 AM

Wayne, your description of the myth about Polish lancers in WWII was much better described than mine!
The idea of the pennon serving as a deterrent for over penetration sounds plausible, but it is notable that the German uhlan units typically removed them from their lances.
Certainly there would seem to be a certain plausibility for unit recognition, however there were not that many lancer regiments so as to be confused in action. At Balaclava (1854), there was only one, in front as in battle order, the 17th Lancers.
Actually lancer units usually had more of a 'national' pennon color combination. The British used red and white (taken from the Napoleonic Polish lancers that inspired them); while others had different colors (Germany black & white). Lance pennons were not regimentally specific, while guidons were.

There were lances with the cross bars in the Spanish cavalry, 18th c.
The lance became the primary weapon used by horsemen in colonial New Spain in the frontiers of northern Mexico and the Spanish southwest. The reason for this was often described as because of the unreliability of the firearms and lack of powder. The Spaniards were adept in the use of the lance (with American Indians quickly adopting same).

The cross bar on boar spears and such hunting weapons was to prevent the animal from 'riding up' the shaft to its attacker in wounded fury, not to restrict penetration.
However over penetration is a notable problem with the lance as the lancer becomes instantly disarmed. This is why lances have the lanyard straps at center, as the lance is used at that stance in jabbing thrusts, rather than full tilt full penetration . At San Pascual in the Mexican American war, the Californio lancers destroyed an American dragoon column with lances, but the dragoons were essentially unarmed. Their paper cartridges had been dampened by rain, it was dark night, unfamiliar terrain, the mounts were spent, and they could not effectively place the caps in their guns in the dark.
Most received many shallow wounds, with many fatal, but gruesomely lingering deaths.

As has been noted, for these reasons, lancers were much despised, and never received quarter as in many cavalry cases others were.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th October 2017, 11:41 PM

Wilkinson made these lances..This is a copy of the inscription.

Dmitry · 3rd November 2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.

I don't buy that. Going at 20mph, and encountering someone's rib cage is a stop enough. If pennons were of any use as an additional stop, the working life of a lancer would be quite brief, with dislocated shoulders and dismounted riders. I'll abstain from commenting on the cross bar for the same reasons.

Dmitry · 3rd November 2017, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.

If this were the case, then the artillerymen would probably be drawn and quartered, when captured. I think you are repeating a myth.

fernando · 3rd November 2017, 03:06 PM

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean

.

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ?

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd November 2017, 03:24 PM

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2017, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean

.

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ?

.

Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand. Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme. I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie.
The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times. I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S.

With the notes on lancers being quite despised, it was that it was thought less than honorable in combat to contact your opponent at a safe distance, as well as the horrifying prospect of being skewered on a pole. Also there were the realities of the often not immediately fatal wounds which carried debris from clothing (or even pennons) deep into the wounds bringing about fatal and lingering sepsis.
I will try to find my notes which were actually discussing 'the use of the lance' as well as circumstances surrounding those who used them.

One of the true reasons there were as many fatalities in the famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo in 1815 was that in the chaos which rather inherently results as the horsemen broke through the French redoubts, the Greys became scattered and unable to regroup. As the survivors scattered through the smoke and din, and officers lost among this, the French lancers were moving through these areas and with stunned riders or injured on the ground did dispatch many more of the Greys.

While not necessarily uncommon in battle, dispatching the wounded enemy, it is the thought of the lance having such dastardly connotation, which led to more disdain. The use of sword, knife or pistol in carrying out this common practice does not absolve the act regardless of weapon used.

It is most interesting to look at the historical perspectives concerning a certain weapon as often the manner of their use or the persons using them offer us clues in identifying them as well as often the period in use.

23rd October 2017, 09:35 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given. Here is some artwork ~The black and white is Elandslaagt in the Boer War..and the other is Omdurman. The lance head and base are of the style made by Wilkinson. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd October 2017 at 10:23 PM.

25th October 2017, 11:41 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Wilkinson made these lances..This is a copy of the inscription. Attached Images

22nd October 2017, 12:10 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	This is a fascinating topic and glad to see it back up! Actually seeing the bit about the pennons purpose being for soaking up blood seems kind of like so many other 'explanations' for features on weapons in the eventual 'lore' that evolves. Interesting that the source for this is said to come from RCMP history. I recall many years ago seeing one of their music parade events with laces drill...it was spectacular. These forces are in themselves most impressive and quite historically profound. However it seems that they really never used the lance but for performances from c. 1870s and to notably impress American Indian tribes etc. They may have had some use in WWI, but while the unit was certainly there, unclear on how much use the lance had. In my opinion, the 'blood' element may well have come from the long tradition of the British 16th Lancers, who fought Sikh forces at Aliwal in 1846. Apparently after the battle the pennons of the lances were so blood soaked and encrusted, that the regiment traditionally crimped their pennons 16 times, in remembrance of that terrible battle. It seems that the Canadians adopted the crimping of the pennons as they took to use of the lance in 1870s and later Queen Victoria took exception to their use of that feature in the pennons. Perhaps there had been some earlier connection between the 16th and the 5th who later formed part of the Canadian brigade in WWI as they were amalgamated together in 1922. Whatever the case, the blood soaked pennons of Aliwal may be the source of this notion. In actuality, the pennon has been suggested as more regimentally symbolic and for parade type purposes than such matters. In WWI, the German lancers left their pennons off during battle.

22nd October 2017, 03:00 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Continuing: On the practical and physiological aspects of the lance. These weapons, while psychologically terrifying in an advance formation of cavalry, their impact was quickly ended once in the melee. These were useless in the ensuing combat, and even to drop them and draw swords would put the rider in immediate vulnerability. Because of the horrific wounding potential of the lance, these horsemen were despised and vehemently attacked, never receiving quarter. They were cumbersome even in normal maneuvers, and could be dangerous to other riders in formation. During the Civil War, an attempt was made to duplicate European lancer regiments, I believe it was a Pennsylvania regt. The results were horrendous, and the troopers were their own worst enemy. I believe the idea was abandoned and the troops back to regular cavalry. The idea of lances ended up with blood hampering their grip is no more likely than from a sword or any edged weapon. Lances had their grips about half way down the shaft, suggesting that their use was not as much a full length penetration thrust, but more of a jabbing action. The idea was not to impale a victim on the lance, obviously rendering the rider weaponless or unhorsing him....but to inflict lacerating wounds at key locations. At San Pascual, in California during the Mexican-American war, the dragoon forces attacked by Mexican lancers often had as many as 13 or more wounds. Actually they were unable to load their guns in the darkness and place the caps, while the Mexican lancers simply chose their targets . They used jabbing thrusts so as not to lose their weapons. The notion of the pennon causing mortal sepsis by its entry into the wound is a valid observation, but penetration of that depth and with that pennon now an obstruction in retraction from the wound, something that probably led to some cavalry removing them prior to combat. I think one of the most notable instances of lore about lances is the one about Polish lancer units attacking German tanks with these in WWII. This was pure propaganda, and while the unit was a lancer named unit, and they did have swords, they did not attack the tanks, especially not with lances. They did use swords as German's exited disabled or stopped tanks though. German Wehrmacht also had cavalry using sabres.

23rd October 2017, 11:02 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know. one of the last true cavalry charges, in early ww1, a group of british cavalry drew sabres & charged a group from a german uhlan, brits has swords, the germans had the steel lance. they were a new unit and apparently not well trained, they broke and ran, only being saved when the survivors managed to get behind a farmer's barbed wire fence that stopped the pursuing brits as the horses refused to jump it. and the poles never charged tanks with their lances in ww2 as german propaganda suggested...they did successfully charge a complacent german encampment that hadn't posted proper sentries and did great damage to it, and retreated in good order when some armour turned up. their lances were back in HQ for parades, they used firearms (and sabres) and were used more as mounted infantry. there were just not enough of them, especially with no air cover, and the russians attacking from the other side to aid their german allies.

24th October 2017, 04:22 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Wayne, your description of the myth about Polish lancers in WWII was much better described than mine! The idea of the pennon serving as a deterrent for over penetration sounds plausible, but it is notable that the German uhlan units typically removed them from their lances. Certainly there would seem to be a certain plausibility for unit recognition, however there were not that many lancer regiments so as to be confused in action. At Balaclava (1854), there was only one, in front as in battle order, the 17th Lancers. Actually lancer units usually had more of a 'national' pennon color combination. The British used red and white (taken from the Napoleonic Polish lancers that inspired them); while others had different colors (Germany black & white). Lance pennons were not regimentally specific, while guidons were. There were lances with the cross bars in the Spanish cavalry, 18th c. The lance became the primary weapon used by horsemen in colonial New Spain in the frontiers of northern Mexico and the Spanish southwest. The reason for this was often described as because of the unreliability of the firearms and lack of powder. The Spaniards were adept in the use of the lance (with American Indians quickly adopting same). The cross bar on boar spears and such hunting weapons was to prevent the animal from 'riding up' the shaft to its attacker in wounded fury, not to restrict penetration. However over penetration is a notable problem with the lance as the lancer becomes instantly disarmed. This is why lances have the lanyard straps at center, as the lance is used at that stance in jabbing thrusts, rather than full tilt full penetration . At San Pascual in the Mexican American war, the Californio lancers destroyed an American dragoon column with lances, but the dragoons were essentially unarmed. Their paper cartridges had been dampened by rain, it was dark night, unfamiliar terrain, the mounts were spent, and they could not effectively place the caps in their guns in the dark. Most received many shallow wounds, with many fatal, but gruesomely lingering deaths. As has been noted, for these reasons, lancers were much despised, and never received quarter as in many cavalry cases others were.

3rd November 2017, 03:06 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts. In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean . BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? .

3rd November 2017, 03:24 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...