Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For a realistic portrayal ... A Duel see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOBTFfHJjV8

[kronckew]

i agree more with matt here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQVrb_cAVfQ

the duellists is a cool movie tho.

see also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlsT9VZyehE

[Mel H]

There has been some discussion here of smallswords and whether any were produced at SB. One of the fascinations for collecting smallswords is the almost infinite variety of hilt designs in existence. From simple iron or brass ones through elegant cut steel and silver, to some which can be described as nothing other than works of art. Many books will show page upon page of hilts that are visual delights but skip over any detailed descriptions or photographs of the blades, leaving the reader to assume that all 'triangular' blades are the same.
While it is true that there is a general similarity in all of them, the colchemarde style being the only distinct variation remarked on by most, it has to be noted that when examining a good selection of blades there are some distintive differences in the methods of forging and grinding.
The nearest ones to an equal triangle are seen the more recent examples which saw something of a revival in the Victorian and later court swords, often seen with cut and studded hilts and worn by diplomats with court dress. The blades on some of these are actualy round at the ricasso and give the impression of being made from a piece of round bar and produced by grinding rather than forging. I have no evidence to support this and would be please to hear if anyone knows more.
Getting back to the period in question, sword blades were trditionaly hammer forged on an anvil, the Hollow ground blade must have required a major change in technical skills, possibly leading to the rolling mill that has been spoken of.
If we look at a cross section of a three sided blade, the sides are not equal, two of the concave sides are smaller than the remaining side which will vary from being almost flat to a noticable concave. Some, on this wider surface, are evenly ground for the full length, others show a definite forge line fuller running down the centre almost to the tip.
Another thought concerns the actual grinding of these blades. Many antique illustrations show huge grinding wheels being used by some unfortunate soul lying on a plank holding the blade against the wheel, producing a near flat surface. A hollow grind of the type seen on smallwords will have an internal radius measured at less than an inch making the normal grinding method impossible, unless of course a large stone could be produced with a narrow, radiused outer edge and the blade offered up in line with the wheel.
All just food for thought.
I tend to ramble on a bit, I'll take and post some photographs soon, to make what I've said here a little more understandable.
M.H.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Mel. I do not have any books relating to small-swords, so I was wondering if you could tell me a few things?
The small-sword popularity appears to have begun in France, was it mid 17thCent.?
Where were the blades coming from back then, as Klingenthal came much later didn't it?
Your collection is of British small-swords right?
Are there any blade manufacturer's marks on them?
When does the earliest example date from?
I understand that, initially, the cross-section of the blade was simply a smaller version of a rapier blade, and that the hollowing began with the Colichemarde; does this mean that the typical three-sided hollowed blade didn't appear until after the Colichemarde or were they appearing simultaneously?
What I'm trying to ascertain is precisely what was everyone looking-for blade-wise when the SB workers arrived, because petitions had been frequent for exclusive rights to produce hollow blades long before 1685.
Hope you don't mind the third degree.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Colichemarde According to Wikepedia.....The Colichemarde blade configuration is widely thought to have been an invention of Graf von Königsmark, owing to the similarity in pronunciation of their names. However, the first blades of this type date from before the Count's lifetime.

The colichemarde first appeared about 1680 and was popular during the next 40 years at the royal European courts. It was especially popular with the officers of the French and Indian War period. George Washington was presented with one during his inauguration.

The widespread misapprehension that the Colichemarde quickly ceased to be produced after 1720 dates to the opinion given by Sir Richard Burton in his "The Book of the Sword" dating to 1884. However, many securely dated colichemarde swords from as late as the 1770s can be found in collections.

This sword appeared at about the same time as the foil. However the foil was created for practicing fencing at court, while the Colichemarde was created for dueling. It made frequent appearances in the duels of New Orleans. A descendant of the Colichemarde is the épée, a modern fencing weapon.

Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5zsmJRilkg where a couple of video presentations look at various interesting Colichemarde and small sword variations...

[Mel H]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hello Mel. I do not have any books relating to small-swords, so I was wondering if you could tell me a few things?
The small-sword popularity appears to have begun in France, was it mid 17thCent.?
Where were the blades coming from back then, as Klingenthal came much later didn't it?
Your collection is of British small-swords right?
Are there any blade manufacturer's marks on them?
When does the earliest example date from?
I understand that, initially, the cross-section of the blade was simply a smaller version of a rapier blade, and that the hollowing began with the Colichemarde; does this mean that the typical three-sided hollowed blade didn't appear until after the Colichemarde or were they appearing simultaneously?
What I'm trying to ascertain is precisely what was everyone looking-for blade-wise when the SB workers arrived, because petitions had been frequent for exclusive rights to produce hollow blades long before 1685.
Hope you don't mind the third degree.

Hi there, I don't mind the third degree, but having said that, I don't consider myself to be an expert, I'm just a keen student of antique arms and armour who's learned a reasonable amount over a lifetime of collecting.
We have to remember that international trade has been around for many centuries, styles and ideas spread more quickly than we realise, some were short lived and others overlapped each other, pining these things down is not simple. The rapier took many forms, evolving for more than two hundred years, from heavy, broad bladed weapons to the familliar slender blades of the late 17th C. I may be proven wrong but I don't think that the hollow ground, three sided form of blade that we see in smallswords was much used for rapiers. In general terms they tend to be of flattened diamond, ovoid or hexagon form.
As the rapier fell out of fashion it transitioned into the smallsword quite quickly, the new style being an effective and deadly weapon weighing a fraction of the earlier 'large' sword. I'm sure that most of the smallswords we see are of continental manufacture, in answer to one of your questions, I have French, German, English and Dutch examples. For some reason most of the smallswords I see, though nicely engraved, do not have any indication of who made them or where and when they were made. If they are marked at all, it is often on the top mount of the scabbard, but parchment scabbards tend to have a shorter lifespan than the swords and are often missing.
Just to make things more interesting, there are other styles of sword mixed in the equasion, pillow sword, scarfe sword, mounting sword (I'm not quite sure where the terms came from), but the earlier smallswords did tend to have flattened blades, the hollow ground ones becoming more prolific in the late 17th / early 18th C.
Generally speaking a better indication of a smallsword's age will be seen in the style of the hilt rather than the blade.
The Colichemarde and slender blades were in use simultaneously, a few years since, I would have answered that they were a later innovation, but have to admit that these days that I'm not sure, as I said earlier, pinning these things down is not simple.
Another thing to remember is that the hollow blade is not confined only to sword blades, the socket bayonet favoured universally for military flintlock firearms used a short three sided hollow blade. The British Brown Bess being the best known example.
M. H.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Mel, I appreciate the details and further appreciate the difficulties involved in establishing cut and dried facts.
I now have two questions that go out to everyone...
first: has anyone knowledge of a hollow-bladed sword, of the type we are discussing, with a blade that was made in Britain, and if they do, who made it and when? I'm beginning to suspect that Britain has never produced such hollow blades at any time. As Ibrahiim asked earlier: "has anyone seen a colichemarde/short-sword grinding machine?"
Secondly: as I stated earlier, I have just acquired a Second Empire Court Sword from Klingenthal and spending time playing with it has led me to what must surely be a universally asked question; why did they not put an edge on the blade? It is of the 'one wide', and 'two narrow' hollows cross-section and I cannot see why they didn't sharpen the edges to produce a cutting sword as well as a thrusting sword. It would be very easy to do, and entirely unique style of fighting could have been developed to take advantage of the facility. I'm tempted to have someone put edges on this sword just to experience the capability of it. Even a 'uniform hollows' blade could have been sharpened quite easily.
ps
Does anyone recognise the maker's name on my blade?
[IMG]

[Mel H]

The smallsword, apart from being an expensive fashion accessory was simply a weapon designed to do quick and severe damage from a distance, whether it was for self defence or a duel. The blade no matter how sharp would not have enough weight to make an effective slashing weapon. The only really effective blade for cutting as opposed to hacking is curved one which could be drawn through the cut for maximum effect.
An example of selective use for a sword can be seen in the new cavalry sabre, designed by a committee of experts and used by the British cavalry from 1908 It was a complete departure from any horseman's sword seen before, being straight and narrow with little real cutting edge, the guard was large and the grip shaped to fit the hand with the arm fully extended. it was little more than a hand held lance. All in all an ugly device that was not received well by the users, but declared by many to be the ultimate design for cavalry use.
Mel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The picture is very blurred but looks like a Klingenthal... Can you reshoot the blade please... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Mel H

Hi there, I don't mind the third degree, but having said that, I don't consider myself to be an expert, I'm just a keen student of antique arms and armour who's learned a reasonable amount over a lifetime of collecting.
We have to remember that international trade has been around for many centuries, styles and ideas spread more quickly than we realise, some were short lived and others overlapped each other, pining these things down is not simple. The rapier took many forms, evolving for more than two hundred years, from heavy, broad bladed weapons to the familliar slender blades of the late 17th C. I may be proven wrong but I don't think that the hollow ground, three sided form of blade that we see in smallswords was much used for rapiers. In general terms they tend to be of flattened diamond, ovoid or hexagon form.
As the rapier fell out of fashion it transitioned into the smallsword quite quickly, the new style being an effective and deadly weapon weighing a fraction of the earlier 'large' sword. I'm sure that most of the smallswords we see are of continental manufacture, in answer to one of your questions, I have French, German, English and Dutch examples. For some reason most of the smallswords I see, though nicely engraved, do not have any indication of who made them or where and when they were made. If they are marked at all, it is often on the top mount of the scabbard, but parchment scabbards tend to have a shorter lifespan than the swords and are often missing.
Just to make things more interesting, there are other styles of sword mixed in the equasion, pillow sword, scarfe sword, mounting sword (I'm not quite sure where the terms came from), but the earlier smallswords did tend to have flattened blades, the hollow ground ones becoming more prolific in the late 17th / early 18th C.
Generally speaking a better indication of a smallsword's age will be seen in the style of the hilt rather than the blade.
The Colichemarde and slender blades were in use simultaneously, a few years since, I would have answered that they were a later innovation, but have to admit that these days that I'm not sure, as I said earlier, pinning these things down is not simple.
Another thing to remember is that the hollow blade is not confined only to sword blades, the socket bayonet favoured universally for military flintlock firearms used a short three sided hollow blade. The British Brown Bess being the best known example.
M. H.

Salaams Mel~ On the point (scuse pun) about the Brown Bess Bayonet! When the soldier’s musket was empty he relied on the bayonet, which had a sharp, triangular section blade of about 44cm. British bayonet charges were greatly feared by enemy troops. The soldiers were very keen to engage the enemy with their bayonets and often thought that they should be allowed to ‘give them the Brummagen’. (Brummagen is a slang name for Birmingham where many bayonets were made.