The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:06 PM

Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Well caught Ulfberht!!
That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion.

In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms.

But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart?

Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ?
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:07 PM

Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

True Jim,

In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ?
What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened.
Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms.
My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes.
Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon.

kind regards

Ulfberth
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:07 PM

Old 7th August 2016, 12:26 PM #299

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by ulfberth
... The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened... (Quote)

Oh yes,
Blunderbusses adapted by regional smiths from salvaged musket parts, from the Peninsular War, are countless.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:08 PM

Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings...
.

Victrix · 24th January 2018, 09:20 PM

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

fernando · 25th January 2018, 09:22 PM

I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark.
You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence.

.

.

Victrix · 25th January 2018, 09:43 PM

Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

Victrix · 12th February 2018, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

I encountered the four dots mark on a sabre at the Warzaw Army Museum (see picture) believed to have belonged to Hungarian noble man Stephan Bathory who was Prince of Transylvania 1571-76 and King of Poland 1575-86. He is credited with bringing the hussars (the light cavalry, not the winged, variety) to Poland.

Billman · 6th March 2018, 05:56 PM

Hi
I joined this forum some years ago, but not been active recently as I had lost track of things when my old computer crashed. My interest is edge tools, primarily the billhook, but also axes and sickles... Many edge tool makers also made weapons, and vice versa - the Klingenthal Royal Armoury works in Alsace became known as Coulaux et Cie, taillandiers (edge tool makers)..

Thus there may well be a great overlap in makers marks - tools are way undervalued as historical artifacts, and many agricultural tools are mis-sold as weapons - often by reputable dealers who should know better... The number of battle axes and beheading axes that are just specialist tools, is beyond belief...

There is an excellent Wiki site showing many of the touch marks used by Austrian scythe smiths, and which probably includes Styria/Slovenia...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...C3%96sterreich

Below Are some of the marks used by Austrian smiths, found on axes etc..

Also the main reason for getting my account here active once more - I have just bought a Polish hewing axe, with a sword shaped touch mark that I recognise, but cannot remember - can anyone identify it for me???

Victrix · 23rd December 2018, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

There’s an 18thC Ottoman Karabela sword in the Imperial Armoury in Prague which has the four dots mark in addition to three dots marks in various constellations. The blade seems European but the four dots mark (near the half moon mark) might have been added later?

19th October 2017, 04:06 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Well caught Ulfberht!! That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion. In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms. But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart? Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:04 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:08 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings... . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:07 PM.

24th January 2018, 09:20 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Marks on 18thC Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks. Attached Images

25th January 2018, 09:22 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark. You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence. . . Attached Images

6th March 2018, 05:56 PM	#9
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Edge tool or weapon? Hi I joined this forum some years ago, but not been active recently as I had lost track of things when my old computer crashed. My interest is edge tools, primarily the billhook, but also axes and sickles... Many edge tool makers also made weapons, and vice versa - the Klingenthal Royal Armoury works in Alsace became known as Coulaux et Cie, taillandiers (edge tool makers).. Thus there may well be a great overlap in makers marks - tools are way undervalued as historical artifacts, and many agricultural tools are mis-sold as weapons - often by reputable dealers who should know better... The number of battle axes and beheading axes that are just specialist tools, is beyond belief... There is an excellent Wiki site showing many of the touch marks used by Austrian scythe smiths, and which probably includes Styria/Slovenia... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...C3%96sterreich Below Are some of the marks used by Austrian smiths, found on axes etc.. Also the main reason for getting my account here active once more - I have just bought a Polish hewing axe, with a sword shaped touch mark that I recognise, but cannot remember - can anyone identify it for me??? Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 6th March 2018 at 06:08 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:07 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298 Posted by: ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 True Jim, In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ? What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened. Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms. My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes. Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon. kind regards Ulfberth . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:05 PM.

25th January 2018, 09:43 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?