The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

#245

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding entries guys!
Fernando thank you for the update on the serpent motif on that cuphilt and for sharing the outcome of suggestions from the contacts you note. It does seem a quite viable possibility that these heraldic associations might well come into play in some manner when a swordsmith selected motif or designs to place in his blades. We have of course long established that many otherwise generally used devices have been placed on blades in talismanic or magical sense along with makers marks. It does seem also well known that certain symbols or devices which allude to particular political or ruling factions may be the source for some markings, and these 'coded' symbols are well known in Italy and many others. The Jacobites in Scotland used certain symbols in thier openwork and piercing on baskethilts in many cases, but the subject remains largely unresearched.

I think Jasper's notes on the use of the serpent or dragon in medieval blades is well placed as not only a Christian related symbol, but was established as a symbol of power in the warriors sense from the times of the Vikings. The outstanding article by Lee Jones, "The Serpent in the Blade" explains the perception of the pattern welding in the blades perceived as a snake or serpent, and via the sword itself as a symbol of strength. In the medieval period there was of course in Europe the well known Order of the Dragon, which may trace origins into ancient times with this creature used as a totem of military strength.

In the case of the last entry by Fernando showing the blade with multiple crossbars on the well known cross and orb as well as the undulating device with the 'V' mouth and dots or stars in the alternating curves, it seems this may be intended as talismanic or magical. The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. This device was later adopted by Solingen as they began producing spuriously marked blades representing Spanish forms. While these marks are perceived as religious in degree, they are essentially invocations calling amuletically for protection and strength. The serpent with its military connotations seems of course well placed in this context.

Regarding the use of undulating lines as well as alternating 's' marks in linear motif or in profiling segments of a weapon, it seems that these are often somewhat aesthetically chosen designs. However it must be considered that the possibility of subtle association or nuance may well have been at hand in the choice of the artisan fashioning or marking the blade.
In the case of firearms, naturally the often applied metaphor and colloquial reference to many guns referred to dragons with the fire breathing feature well noted.

The 'dime el aterro' blade added by Gav here is also intriguing. While the translation examination presents an interesting conundrum, I think it is important to note Fernando's earlier description of regulated blade lengths in Spain and Portugal as I believe he noted. This blade which is now mounted in a firangi is about 41" long, and would seem to correspond to the longer blades which exceeded the five span limitation. This then may explain its presence in this firangi in accord with Fernando's note that many of these 'outlaw' blades were apparantly exported (possibly after confiscation?) to India and other trade entrepots. I am inclined to believe that the blade is either a Solingen product or Italian (similar to many of thier blades) , however due to the seemingly corrupted or transliterated nature of the inscription perhaps the blade never even reached the markets in Spain or Portugal due to these restrictions.

Thank you again Fernando, Michael and Gav for adding these entries to this thread and adding to the archived material which I hope many will find useful as well as promoting ongoing research.

I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them.

All the very best,
Jim
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[fernando]

#246

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany -
the center of 15th and 16th
century gunmaking


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Outstanding entries guys!
The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades.
I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them.
All the very best,
Jim (Quote)

Hi Jim,
Thank you so much once more! I feel more than rewarded by the feedback that my comprehensive archives can sometimes be of some use to some people.
As to the cross and orb mark, from all what I have gathered on early blades, it was mostly used in the South German and Austrian areas throughout the 16th c, mostly in the first half. Thus it is often found on Pasau and Munich blades, and it was also struck on a fine Messer, ca. 1500-20, from the Princely Collections of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vadz, that once was in my collection; photos attached.

For more on this fine specimen, plesse see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...0&page=12&pp=30,

posts # 360 and 361.

Interesting enough I have never noticed a cross and orb mark on any barrel or lock so it seems definitely to have been confined to blades.

Best,
Michael

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[fernando]

Old 29th June 2012, 09:05 PM #247

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking

In some instances, 16th c. artists were astoundingly exact in their depictions, including the representation of characteristic blade marks.

Attached please find a depiction of a cross-and-orb mark, together with a wavy serpent ornament, on the blade of a ca. 1540's Landsknecht saber, in a painting by Lucas Cranach the Younger, dated 1584, preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg.

Author's photos, 1995.
Please see also

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1713#post141713

Best,
Michael

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[fernando]

Old 2nd November 2012, 03:26 PM #248
Posted by:
theswordcollector
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berlin

Originally Posted by Jeff D
Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff (Quote)

I have the same orb and Solingen cross with rose gold on my schiavone blade
with a running wolf with reminance of rose gold inlay also is this the same smith? I thought it might be copper or rose gold. I might give it a drop of nitric acid to find out.

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[fernando]

Old 4th November 2012, 03:20 PM #249

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these.
,

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote)



Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke..

My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants?

It would be good to see a full blade please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2012, 06:18 PM #251

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim
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