The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:00 PM

Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM
Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Gonzalo,
Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort.

Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added.

I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers.
The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords.

The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation.

The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts.

All the best Gonzalo!
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM

Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico

You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you.
My best regards

Gonzalo
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM

Old 28th October 2009, 07:46 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

At least i could have the crucifix mark recognized, if still not (yet) identified.
A reputed Catalunian arms dealer has already sold two swords with this mark; both cup hilted and with the same blade inscription. He doesn't know however its origin, although his guess goes for the German provenance.
This is a reasonable guess; zillions of blades were imported from Germany into the peninsula, in a major scale to Spain, in the context. It is also more reasonable to think that blade inscriptions like the one in my example, would be made by German smiths; they were known to fancy writing such phrases in spanish, but couldn't avoid the wrong spellings. I guess there are three errors in the phrase " Min Sinal Hes el Santissimo Crucificio "; and i don't think the reason is that at the time, the orthography of these words was different.

Fernando
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM

Old 29th October 2009, 03:48 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

No problem at all Gonzalo In the text of my ramblings and sometimes my choice of words could be better.

Fernando, as we have found over time, and as you have noted, these blades seem likely Solingen produced products for Spain and Portugal during the 18th century. The broad lettering with these mottos, often misspelled, and the crosses or various marks suggest that much as many of the products, certain blades and markings were meant for certain markets. It seems that for some reason, the examples marked 'SAHAGUM' are often spelled 'SAHAGUN", and these from what I recall, often ended up in the Continent, although I have seen examples Spanish Colonial. I have seen blades with this name in broad lettering with different spellings on either side.
Clearly these are German commercial products as noted.

With this being the case, it would seem the use of this style crucifix cross was intended to appeal to the market(s) for these blades, rather than being associated with a specific unit or group using these swords.

With my personal affection for Spanish/Portuguese colonial weapons, and profound weakness for cuphilts, you gotta know I think this is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:02 PM

Old 28th March 2011, 08:51 PM

Posted by:
napoleon
Member

Join Date: Jan 2011

hello all i was wondering if anyone knows anything about a rose and crown mark on a hunting sword blade.would this be english? regards napoleon
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:02 PM

Old 30th March 2011, 03:25 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hello and welcome to the forum,
Could you possible show a picture of the stamp?
I am not very good with European stamps, but there are other who are, and they may be able to help you.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:03 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 07:52 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Not being a collector of weapons, but of edged tools, in particular the billhook, I can give some background to this from a different perspective. Early edge tools were made by the individual smith, for local use, and were probably never marked, other than possible decorative or symbolic markings - usually stamped with chisels and serrated gouges.

If the smith was one of a group, or had a wider market, then some form of idenification was used - usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised.

In the UK iron and steel tools were often marked in the late 18th century and early 19th with three individual letter stamps - forename, surname and location of the smith. Later, c 1830 - 1850, individual word stamps were used, e.g. JOHN, FUSSELL, MELLS - sometimes stamped upside down, or in the wrong order. Edge tool makers were often also cutlers in the larger centres such as Sheffield, and adopted the trade or guild marks on their edge tools as well..

By 1850 machine cut stamps were being used which allowed all the information to be stamped on in one go... Most edge tool makers also used some form of trademark to denote the quality of their tools - the Crown was used by several as a mark of quality (e.g. by Gilpin, Brades and Swift) probably a reference to best Crown Steel as used by scythe and sickle makers.

A simple recognisable mark was of great advantage in a time when much of the population was illiterate - so many larger European edge tool works also used them, athough in France the vast majority just used a name and town, e.g. ALEXIS A ORLEANS....

Tools made and used in the centre, often Alpine, European countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Italy and Hungary - often previously part of the Autsro-Hungarian Empire), often also have decorated blades - which are believed to be symbolic, e.g. to ward off eveil spirits...

(missing attachments)
.

19th October 2017, 12:00 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Gonzalo, Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort. Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added. I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers. The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords. The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation. The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts. All the best Gonzalo! Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:48 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:01 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM Posted by: Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you. My best regards Gonzalo . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:49 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th October 2009, 07:46 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal At least i could have the crucifix mark recognized, if still not (yet) identified. A reputed Catalunian arms dealer has already sold two swords with this mark; both cup hilted and with the same blade inscription. He doesn't know however its origin, although his guess goes for the German provenance. This is a reasonable guess; zillions of blades were imported from Germany into the peninsula, in a major scale to Spain, in the context. It is also more reasonable to think that blade inscriptions like the one in my example, would be made by German smiths; they were known to fancy writing such phrases in spanish, but couldn't avoid the wrong spellings. I guess there are three errors in the phrase " Min Sinal Hes el Santissimo Crucificio "; and i don't think the reason is that at the time, the orthography of these words was different. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:50 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:01 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th October 2009, 03:48 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 No problem at all Gonzalo In the text of my ramblings and sometimes my choice of words could be better. Fernando, as we have found over time, and as you have noted, these blades seem likely Solingen produced products for Spain and Portugal during the 18th century. The broad lettering with these mottos, often misspelled, and the crosses or various marks suggest that much as many of the products, certain blades and markings were meant for certain markets. It seems that for some reason, the examples marked 'SAHAGUM' are often spelled 'SAHAGUN", and these from what I recall, often ended up in the Continent, although I have seen examples Spanish Colonial. I have seen blades with this name in broad lettering with different spellings on either side. Clearly these are German commercial products as noted. With this being the case, it would seem the use of this style crucifix cross was intended to appeal to the market(s) for these blades, rather than being associated with a specific unit or group using these swords. With my personal affection for Spanish/Portuguese colonial weapons, and profound weakness for cuphilts, you gotta know I think this is a beauty!! All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:51 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:02 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	rose and crown mark Old 28th March 2011, 08:51 PM Posted by: napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 hello all i was wondering if anyone knows anything about a rose and crown mark on a hunting sword blade.would this be english? regards napoleon . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:51 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:03 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th April 2011, 07:52 AM Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Not being a collector of weapons, but of edged tools, in particular the billhook, I can give some background to this from a different perspective. Early edge tools were made by the individual smith, for local use, and were probably never marked, other than possible decorative or symbolic markings - usually stamped with chisels and serrated gouges. If the smith was one of a group, or had a wider market, then some form of idenification was used - usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised. In the UK iron and steel tools were often marked in the late 18th century and early 19th with three individual letter stamps - forename, surname and location of the smith. Later, c 1830 - 1850, individual word stamps were used, e.g. JOHN, FUSSELL, MELLS - sometimes stamped upside down, or in the wrong order. Edge tool makers were often also cutlers in the larger centres such as Sheffield, and adopted the trade or guild marks on their edge tools as well.. By 1850 machine cut stamps were being used which allowed all the information to be stamped on in one go... Most edge tool makers also used some form of trademark to denote the quality of their tools - the Crown was used by several as a mark of quality (e.g. by Gilpin, Brades and Swift) probably a reference to best Crown Steel as used by scythe and sickle makers. A simple recognisable mark was of great advantage in a time when much of the population was illiterate - so many larger European edge tool works also used them, athough in France the vast majority just used a name and town, e.g. ALEXIS A ORLEANS.... Tools made and used in the centre, often Alpine, European countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Italy and Hungary - often previously part of the Autsro-Hungarian Empire), often also have decorated blades - which are believed to be symbolic, e.g. to ward off eveil spirits... (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:20 PM.