The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:43 AM

Old 5th December 2008, 06:40 PM

Posted by:
Kuba
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008

I think that is XVIII century because is signed AYALA
original swords of Toledo have AIALA or AIA and DE TOLEDO

But what it means this St.Clemens cross ?
probably this is a true mark

This 1/4 sword :-) was found at the attic in very old house in Poland ,
in the region Gdańsk / Danzig , maybe come of old German colection ?
destroyed by Red Army in 1945

Sorry for my english :-) I know that Kali ordered an ashtray wine
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:43 AM

Old 6th May 2009, 09:45 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I am a bit too lazy to check if these tables were alredy posted here so, just in case, i post them now.
Not much harm if they are already here, somewhere
Fernando
.

.
Attached Images

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:44 AM

Old 18th September 2009, 09:58 AM

Posted by:
buendia
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Silesia, Poland

Who can identify these marks?

***********************
.........................................

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:45 AM

Old 18th September 2009, 03:01 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thanks for posting that Buendia! Its nice to see a posting on this trusty old thread
I'm curious about which book this table of markings is from, it is often helpful to know which context these references are in, as well as which language. Does the book make mention of the authors thoughts on the markings?

These are of course markings applied to trade blades, believed to have originated with trade guilds in Northern Italy, they are typically associated with Genoa, and as you can see that name is often used within the marks.
Genoan blades traded heavily to the north in colonial activity in the Black Sea as well as of course throughout the Meditteranean.
The usually dentated half circles are known as 'sickle marks' most often, though referred to my many other terms including eyelashes or even in some cases hogsbacks.
The 'Frindia' or 'Fringia' marks seem to derive from 16th-17th century application, perhaps sometimes later, usually in East European cases and there has been considerable debate on the word(s) which seem to be an acronym or phrase using first letters. It is often seen, as are the 'sickle' marks on Styrian blades, as well as certain other centers. Solingen began copying the marks, though often bracketing other marks inside them, especially the famed ANDREA FERARA, typically seen on blades for the Scottish market.

Thanks again Buendia, its always good to see interest in pursuing these fascinating markings and thier associations and application.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:45 AM

Old 18th October 2009, 07:04 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Definitely i don't reach full control of my new digital camera ... or perhaps is the camera that is no so good.
This sword is, i would say, from the XVII century. Judging by the width of its blade (4 cms) and fixation of the knuckle guard to the pommel, it would be a military weapon.
Its blade measures 80 cms. and is rather thin, which makes this a light handy sword, with 950 grams.
It bears along the fullers one of these traditional religious inscriptions 'MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO' (my sign ((symbol)) is the holly crucifix).
In both sides of the ricasso it has a punction of its smith; although we can discern a crucified christ, the cross is not a plain one. Also its top seems to have some kind of efect, which is almost imossible to figure out, due to its position under the langets.
The crucifix was a mark practiced by various smiths, like the German Hannes Cleles and Heinrich Koel (known as Coll) and the Toledan Pedro Hernandez, but i suspect there were more variations on this mark theme.
The exact provenance of this type of swords is often undistinguished and so called Iberian or Peninsular but, due to the system of its cup fixation, welded instead of screwed, may well be Portuguese ... not taking into account that until the mid XVII century Portugal was under controll of the Spanish Philipes, and contemporary weaponry fashions were an assumed mix.
It was acquired in a Portuguese mannor house, anyway.
Fernando

I wonder if anyone here has ever seen these smith marks ?!

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:47 AM

Old 18th October 2009, 07:05 PM
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Some more picures ...

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:48 AM

Old 18th October 2009, 08:03 PM

Posted by:
Norman McCormick
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

Hi Fernando,
I really like your new acquisition. The attached photo is of a mark attributed to Hannes Cleles and is obviously different from the one on your sword. The 'Apostolic Cross' has been used by a few countries e.g. Hungary and within the Roman Church is associated specifically with the office of Cardinal. I wonder if it is possible that it is not a makers mark but a mark denoting that it belongs to or was made for a specific group e.g. Cardinals guard. Just thinking out loud. Regardless of who or what it's a great sword.
My Regards,
Norman

(missing attachments)
.

19th October 2017, 11:43 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th December 2008, 06:40 PM Posted by: Kuba Member Join Date: Dec 2008 I think that is XVIII century because is signed AYALA original swords of Toledo have AIALA or AIA and DE TOLEDO But what it means this St.Clemens cross ? probably this is a true mark This 1/4 sword :-) was found at the attic in very old house in Poland , in the region Gdańsk / Danzig , maybe come of old German colection ? destroyed by Red Army in 1945 Sorry for my english :-) I know that Kali ordered an ashtray wine . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:55 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:43 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Toledo makers marks Old 6th May 2009, 09:45 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal I am a bit too lazy to check if these tables were alredy posted here so, just in case, i post them now. Not much harm if they are already here, somewhere Fernando . . Attached Images Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:56 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:44 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 18th September 2009, 09:58 AM Posted by: buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Who can identify these marks? *********************** ......................................... . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 01:00 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:45 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 18th September 2009, 03:01 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thanks for posting that Buendia! Its nice to see a posting on this trusty old thread I'm curious about which book this table of markings is from, it is often helpful to know which context these references are in, as well as which language. Does the book make mention of the authors thoughts on the markings? These are of course markings applied to trade blades, believed to have originated with trade guilds in Northern Italy, they are typically associated with Genoa, and as you can see that name is often used within the marks. Genoan blades traded heavily to the north in colonial activity in the Black Sea as well as of course throughout the Meditteranean. The usually dentated half circles are known as 'sickle marks' most often, though referred to my many other terms including eyelashes or even in some cases hogsbacks. The 'Frindia' or 'Fringia' marks seem to derive from 16th-17th century application, perhaps sometimes later, usually in East European cases and there has been considerable debate on the word(s) which seem to be an acronym or phrase using first letters. It is often seen, as are the 'sickle' marks on Styrian blades, as well as certain other centers. Solingen began copying the marks, though often bracketing other marks inside them, especially the famed ANDREA FERARA, typically seen on blades for the Scottish market. Thanks again Buendia, its always good to see interest in pursuing these fascinating markings and thier associations and application. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:59 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:45 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A cup hilted sword ... much better than the pictures Old 18th October 2009, 07:04 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Definitely i don't reach full control of my new digital camera ... or perhaps is the camera that is no so good. This sword is, i would say, from the XVII century. Judging by the width of its blade (4 cms) and fixation of the knuckle guard to the pommel, it would be a military weapon. Its blade measures 80 cms. and is rather thin, which makes this a light handy sword, with 950 grams. It bears along the fullers one of these traditional religious inscriptions 'MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO' (my sign ((symbol)) is the holly crucifix). In both sides of the ricasso it has a punction of its smith; although we can discern a crucified christ, the cross is not a plain one. Also its top seems to have some kind of efect, which is almost imossible to figure out, due to its position under the langets. The crucifix was a mark practiced by various smiths, like the German Hannes Cleles and Heinrich Koel (known as Coll) and the Toledan Pedro Hernandez, but i suspect there were more variations on this mark theme. The exact provenance of this type of swords is often undistinguished and so called Iberian or Peninsular but, due to the system of its cup fixation, welded instead of screwed, may well be Portuguese ... not taking into account that until the mid XVII century Portugal was under controll of the Spanish Philipes, and contemporary weaponry fashions were an assumed mix. It was acquired in a Portuguese mannor house, anyway. Fernando I wonder if anyone here has ever seen these smith marks ?! . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 01:01 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:47 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 18th October 2009, 07:05 PM fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Some more picures ... . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:35 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:48 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 18th October 2009, 08:03 PM Posted by: Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Hi Fernando, I really like your new acquisition. The attached photo is of a mark attributed to Hannes Cleles and is obviously different from the one on your sword. The 'Apostolic Cross' has been used by a few countries e.g. Hungary and within the Roman Church is associated specifically with the office of Cardinal. I wonder if it is possible that it is not a makers mark but a mark denoting that it belongs to or was made for a specific group e.g. Cardinals guard. Just thinking out loud. Regardless of who or what it's a great sword. My Regards, Norman (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:09 PM.