The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:27 AM

Old 14th October 2008, 12:49 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

We can see that smiths are equiped with a set of punches of different shapes, from straight to semi circular. With these being continuously applied next to each other, they form the different designs. Also they appear to vary in length; the ones used in my navaja are quite small ( circa 1/2"), with two different gouge shapes.
Hell, this revelation was quite worthy of a genius
Fernando
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:27 AM

Old 14th October 2008, 12:54 PM

Posrted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,031

Originally Posted by celtan
... Sooner of later, one of us will get to the answer... (Quote)

Soon i will bring (once more) this to European Armoury Forum.
Who knows, with fresh members and all
Fernando
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:27 AM

Old 14th October 2008, 02:15 PM

Posted by:
Lee
EAAF Staff

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA

Another term for the "zig-zag" in the context of Native American jewelry is "rocker-engraving," so named as a short bladed chisel is rocked from corner to corner as it is advanced forward to created the larger design.

Example from an early southwestern or plains bracelet:

(missing attachments)
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:28 AM

Old 14th October 2008, 02:59 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I first thaught this would be the technique, but later considered it couldn't be the one used in metals, specially on steel/iron, as needing considerable strenght to impress the marks. Also i found it rather unhandy to rock curved shapes like, for example, some small circular ones in my navaja.
I had the idea that such rock engraving tools were used in old shoe making and other leather crafts.
So much for my geniality

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:28 AM

Old 14th October 2008, 07:29 PM

Posted by:
Lee
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA

The Native Americans would have been into steel tools by this time; if the bracelet above is Navajo, then it is likely early 1870s, right at the dawn of their silver working. I would agree this technique would be difficult once you were away from soft metals.

(I recently bought a collection of iron arrow points represented as Native American at a local antique store. An advanced bow collector who had passed on first sight, later found an article (I am still waiting for the promised copy) about these arrow tips, and returned to but them the next day. I always think of flint and other stone when I think Native American arrow points, but the very little that I could find on line was a real awakening for me and that was that iron arrowheads were adopted pretty much as soon as the material became available... but that will be another thread).
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:29 AM

Old 14th October 2008, 08:34 PM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

Ok guys...A friend of mine who is a fabulous artist/engraver, receives new blades from the manufacturer, softened, engraves the design of his choice or his client, then ships them back to the manufacturer to have them hardened and mounted into the hilt. This is how you get around the non-soft metals.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:30 AM

Old 4th December 2008, 07:54 PM

Posted by:
Kuba
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008

Hello

I looking information about this blade

Is signed TOMAS AYALA and St. Clement's Cross

and have 35 cm long

In my opinion it is German imitation of XVIII century

Thank you for your help
.
Kuba

19th October 2017, 11:27 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th October 2008, 12:49 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal We can see that smiths are equiped with a set of punches of different shapes, from straight to semi circular. With these being continuously applied next to each other, they form the different designs. Also they appear to vary in length; the ones used in my navaja are quite small ( circa 1/2"), with two different gouge shapes. Hell, this revelation was quite worthy of a genius Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Zig zag patterns

19th October 2017, 11:27 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	New thread in new Forum Old 14th October 2008, 12:54 PM Posrted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 6,031 Originally Posted by celtan ... Sooner of later, one of us will get to the answer... (Quote) Soon i will bring (once more) this to European Armoury Forum. Who knows, with fresh members and all Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:46 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:27 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Rocker-engraving Old 14th October 2008, 02:15 PM Posted by: Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Another term for the "zig-zag" in the context of Native American jewelry is "rocker-engraving," so named as a short bladed chisel is rocked from corner to corner as it is advanced forward to created the larger design. Example from an early southwestern or plains bracelet: (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:16 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:28 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Rocker engraving Old 14th October 2008, 02:59 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal I first thaught this would be the technique, but later considered it couldn't be the one used in metals, specially on steel/iron, as needing considerable strenght to impress the marks. Also i found it rather unhandy to rock curved shapes like, for example, some small circular ones in my navaja. I had the idea that such rock engraving tools were used in old shoe making and other leather crafts. So much for my geniality . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:48 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:28 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Rocker-engraving, continued Old 14th October 2008, 07:29 PM Posted by: Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA The Native Americans would have been into steel tools by this time; if the bracelet above is Navajo, then it is likely early 1870s, right at the dawn of their silver working. I would agree this technique would be difficult once you were away from soft metals. (I recently bought a collection of iron arrow points represented as Native American at a local antique store. An advanced bow collector who had passed on first sight, later found an article (I am still waiting for the promised copy) about these arrow tips, and returned to but them the next day. I always think of flint and other stone when I think Native American arrow points, but the very little that I could find on line was a real awakening for me and that was that iron arrowheads were adopted pretty much as soon as the material became available... but that will be another thread). . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:49 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:29 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Rocker engraving Old 14th October 2008, 08:34 PM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Ok guys...A friend of mine who is a fabulous artist/engraver, receives new blades from the manufacturer, softened, engraves the design of his choice or his client, then ships them back to the manufacturer to have them hardened and mounted into the hilt. This is how you get around the non-soft metals. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:50 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:30 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Blade signed by TOMAS AYALA Old 4th December 2008, 07:54 PM Posted by: Kuba Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Hello I looking information about this blade Is signed TOMAS AYALA and St. Clement's Cross and have 35 cm long In my opinion it is German imitation of XVIII century Thank you for your help . Kuba Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:50 PM.