The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 03:21 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

I agree that this blade has a koummya profile and I believe that is it's origin. I do question if the engravings are purely decorative or a geometric motiff. Perhaps it is me being a romantic, but I believe there is some sort of symbolism reference. The engravings are worn on both the hilt and the blade, but it appears that the auction house blackened the zig zag pattern on the hilt to appear more obvious.

Not all of the Nubian emeralds were substandard to the Columbian, but the vast majority, yes. Emerald (beryl) depends upon it's depth of color from chromium, and unfortunately mother earth placed very little in that region. As of this time, we are aware of 3 productive mines in Egypt, one which was named after Cleopatra and her passion thereof.

Arizona...Route 66...how nice! I love the west and visit as often as possible...mostly Santa Fe. Actually the first time I visited my beloved southwest was Tucson, for the international gem shows. It just feels like home, hopefully someday it will be. Are you aware of your wonderful Ant Hill garnets? Spectacular! And the mining techniques (none) are even more amazing.

I have low quality photos of the scabbard at another computer. Tomorrow I will email it to you. Another interesting note...when applying heat to the gold, little impurities pop and fizzle from the metal, showing the inability to refine gold as we do now. See, it's still fun!

Dr. Ann has only seen low resolution photos of the dagger. I have yet to have professional microphotography photos taken of the blade, as needed for a better identification as to whether it is wootz, very old wootz, or not. Actually, could you tell me what magnification strength would provide the best results? She is such an extremely knowledable and considerate lady, with a burning drive for her passion...such an admirable person!

I am so pleased that you want to continue working on this! Perhaps someday when I visit my "future" home, you would like to have a hands on inspection?

Kindest regards,
bjeweled
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:23 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 12:02 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA

How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best
.

M

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean .
I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger.
However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard.
Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation?
Fernando (Quote)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:23 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 03:53 PM

Posted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

More zigzag pattern ?
This time a Balkan ca 1800 Yataghan scabbard .

This Koummya blade looks very early and somewhat crude .

Fascinating story .

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:24 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 04:39 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This has a Spanish provenance, but undoubtfully with a Moorish influence.

Fernando

(missing attachments)

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:24 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 05:04 PM

Posrted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

What really strikes me is how unfinished the blade is; design is beautiful but so crude looking .
In the 12th century a better finish could have been acheived .

So does that make this a blade of humble origin ??
-
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:25 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 05:04 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best

M (Quote)

That also has already been under consideration:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001319.html

Could actualy only be no more than a prosaic view ... untill real evidence pops up, which i doubt.
Fernando
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:25 AM

Old 13th October 2008, 05:56 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by celtan:
How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber?

Best

M (Quote)

Actually this is an extremely interesting topic Manolo! though I feel doubtful that it applies with this piece. I am always happy to entertain every possibility in identifying and understanding any weapon, and if more could be found to support the idea it would provide some interesting potential.

The only weapons I have seen with distinct intention of use for artillery charge measuring were the so called 'bombardier' stilettos from Italy, if I recall correctly. Might be an excellent topic for another thread !

All best regards,
Jim
.

19th October 2017, 11:22 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How fun is this? Old 13th October 2008, 03:21 AM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 I agree that this blade has a koummya profile and I believe that is it's origin. I do question if the engravings are purely decorative or a geometric motiff. Perhaps it is me being a romantic, but I believe there is some sort of symbolism reference. The engravings are worn on both the hilt and the blade, but it appears that the auction house blackened the zig zag pattern on the hilt to appear more obvious. Not all of the Nubian emeralds were substandard to the Columbian, but the vast majority, yes. Emerald (beryl) depends upon it's depth of color from chromium, and unfortunately mother earth placed very little in that region. As of this time, we are aware of 3 productive mines in Egypt, one which was named after Cleopatra and her passion thereof. Arizona...Route 66...how nice! I love the west and visit as often as possible...mostly Santa Fe. Actually the first time I visited my beloved southwest was Tucson, for the international gem shows. It just feels like home, hopefully someday it will be. Are you aware of your wonderful Ant Hill garnets? Spectacular! And the mining techniques (none) are even more amazing. I have low quality photos of the scabbard at another computer. Tomorrow I will email it to you. Another interesting note...when applying heat to the gold, little impurities pop and fizzle from the metal, showing the inability to refine gold as we do now. See, it's still fun! Dr. Ann has only seen low resolution photos of the dagger. I have yet to have professional microphotography photos taken of the blade, as needed for a better identification as to whether it is wootz, very old wootz, or not. Actually, could you tell me what magnification strength would provide the best results? She is such an extremely knowledable and considerate lady, with a burning drive for her passion...such an admirable person! I am so pleased that you want to continue working on this! Perhaps someday when I visit my "future" home, you would like to have a hands on inspection? Kindest regards, bjeweled . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:27 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:23 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th October 2008, 12:02 PM Posted by: celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber? Best . M Quote: Originally Posted by fernando The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean . I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger. However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard. Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation? Fernando (Quote) . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:29 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:23 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th October 2008, 03:53 PM Posted by: Rick Member Join Date: Nov 2004 More zigzag pattern ? This time a Balkan ca 1800 Yataghan scabbard . This Koummya blade looks very early and somewhat crude . Fascinating story . (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:15 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:24 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Zig Zag? Old 13th October 2008, 04:39 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This has a Spanish provenance, but undoubtfully with a Moorish influence. Fernando (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:16 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:24 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So Many Questions Old 13th October 2008, 05:04 PM Posrted by: Rick Member Join Date: Nov 2004 What really strikes me is how unfinished the blade is; design is beautiful but so crude looking . In the 12th century a better finish could have been acheived . So does that make this a blade of humble origin ?? - . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:34 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:25 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th October 2008, 05:04 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by celtan How about a more prosaic view? Couldn't this be sort like an artillery dagger, with a measure for either black powder load or perhaps gun caliber? Best M (Quote) That also has already been under consideration: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001319.html Could actualy only be no more than a prosaic view ... untill real evidence pops up, which i doubt. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:39 PM.