The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:15 AM

Old 27th April 2008, 05:23 PM

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK:

here's a better shot of the marking that i made a few minutes ago:

the blade is also marked closer to the tip

can you see what it is yet?

fairly good replica of a high ranking autro-hungarian hussar sabre, and a LOT cheaper than the original. just thought i'd show that just because it's marked doesn't mean it's not a copy or a blade marked to make it look classier. the marks are pretty clear examples tho, supposedly copied from the original in a museum.

made in germany (solingen) tho this year, instead of the mid-18th c., the marks are laser cut

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:16 AM

Old 9th October 2008, 08:11 PM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

Hello everyone. Dr. Ann was kind enough to recommend this forum for your informed input. This Saracen was part of the Morossini collection and de-ascensioned in the early 60's. I am especially intrigued by the engravings in the blade as well as to what appears to be the camel bone grip. The metal on the grip acid tests to be 24kt gold with a Nubian emerald in the butt. I have included photos taken at 30X of the blade, but I can only tell you that there is iron included in the marriage of metals. At the base of the blade the flower (?) acid tests as silver. There is an emerald and ruby studded gold sheath that accompanies it, but sadly was "repaired" somewhere prior to 1963. At this time I am carefully restoring the sheath with hopes to keep the integrity of the piece. If anyone can give me some input on this item of intrigue, I would greatly appreciate it.

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:16 AM

Old 11th October 2008, 05:26 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Bjeweled, and welcome to the forum!
This is indeed an intriguing piece, and very attractive along with a most distinguished provenance. In my opinion, this is essentially a remounted 'koummya', which is the Moroccan version of the Arab janbiyya dagger. The blade is of the basic koummya profile, though the fullers are not commonly seen on most examples, suggesting this may be an earlier blade.
The intricate outlined motif on the blade seem to be in line with decorative motif on blades in Maghrebi regions, though I have not found exact duplicate of the zigzag linear.

The hilt is most unusual, and completely atypical for koummya, with the camel bone, gold mounted, and jeweled likely intended to honor a heirloom blade. The markings on the horn grip seem to be selected decoratively rather than specifically symbolic, and to carry aesthetically traditional theme.

The 'ichthys' or fish symbol, is of course considered a Christian symbol today, however in early times it was a Greek alphabetic symbol. Interestingly, through the Phoenicians presence in North Africa, this symbol became the letter 'f' in the ancient Berber alphabet, though it seems doubtful that this representation is intended in this motif.

The 'Star of Solomon' or 'Star of David' seems to even further complicate the markings on this weapon which would be most likely from Muslim regions in Morocco. Again, this six point star, now immediately associated with the Jewish Faith as the 'Magen David' (shield of David), had much earlier origins,with its intersecting triangles presenting complex symbolism in various cultures and religions.

Having noted these comments on these familiar symbols, it is important to note here that in art and decoration in North Africa in particular, such symbols were often used incongruently when intended simply as geometric motif.

The blade on this dagger seems to have some age, and as noted, is quite possibly a heirloom, with such remounting typically difficult to assess as far as age, especially with precious metal which does not reveal patination and aging as in standard metals.

An intriguing and extremely attractive item, likely refurbished for either presentation or as a keepsake for a person of importance.

Thank you so much for sharing it here!

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Just found some zig zag info in notes suggesting that the Fulani and Dogon used this motif, likely putting this to the south of Morocco toward Mali. Not surprising! Trade routes...camels.....seems to fit pretty well.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:17 AM

Old 12th October 2008, 12:27 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

Default Thank you Jim!
I so appreciate your input on this. To give you a little more background on this piece...there was a tag on the saracen, from the auction house, stating "TAKEN DURING THE SECOND CRUSADE". After researching the Morosini family I discovered an aristocratic family with lineage dating to 1148 when Domenico Morosini was elected Doge of Venice. With the Second Crusade taking place from 1147 through 1149...hmmm. Considering Giovanni Morosini (the collector) was given a desk by his brother that once belonged to Napolean I would presume his family were collectors as well and keepers of their family lot. This may be a bit of a presumption, but I wonder if the Doge was the original Venetian owner of this Saracen.
I agree with the possibility of the blade being remounted. Kudos to the artistian who matched the zig zag pattern from the blade to the hilt.

New York Times Archives; July 19, 1902
Sept. 16, 1932
Time Magazine; Oct. 17. 1932

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:21 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

You're most welcome Bejeweled, I enjoyed the research and it really is an attractive dagger. It sounds as if this Italian family has some very impressive lineage, and now that the crusades connection is revealed, the use of the antiquated term Saracen is explained. It is not unusual to see items of unusually elevated provenance appearing in auctions and sale catalogs.

I do not believe this blade, though earlier than most examples commonly found, could date much further back than the 18th century, possibly into the early 19th. As I noted, the zigzag motif seems to be somewhat a Saharan motif, and was likely added at the time the blade was mounted in the present horn mounts etc. It is not unusual to see most unusual items in the eclectic holdings of wealthy and noble collectors, and these items were purposely gathered to impressively decorate parlors and smoking rooms in Victorian times. I believe this item may have quite interesting provenance into this apparantly esteemed collection, but personally doubt the crusades part of it.

What are the cites to New York Times and Time magazine referencing?

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM

Old 12th October 2008, 03:17 AM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008

That so makes sense. I appreciate your passion and knowledge about this.

There is another interesting factor... The Nubian (Egyptian) emerald on the butt and the ones in the sheath haven't been mined since the mid 1500's upon the discovery of Columbia and their far more beautiful gemstones. Since I had to remove the emeralds from their bezels on the sheath to be able to do the soldering required to improve a terrible repair, I discovered a backing on the stones. Further investigating and magnification shows it to be a mixture of crushed malachite and bees wax, a technique used for thousands of years. Upon magnification of the emerald in the butt it has never been removed and has the same backing. So either the artisan stock piled the emeralds for 200 to 300 years or the sheath and grip were created long before the blade, or possibly the age of the blade is a bit older. As you referred to the fullers...just maybe? The techniques and tools used for the gold work and cutting of the gemstones is applicable of an earlier period than the 1500's.

Oh...I am a master jeweler with over 3 decades of experience, and an avid gemstone lover and collector.

This is so much fun, thank you again! It just becomes more interesting...

Yes, the cites are in reference to research on the Morosini's.

Kindest regards,
Bjeweled
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM

Old 12th October 2008, 05:31 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you Bejeweled for the kind comments, and this gets more and more fascinating! Trying to assess a piece from photographs, even as nicely posted as you have presented definitely has its drawbacks. My view on the blade is of course just opinion based on the profile, fullering and general appearance of the blade, which seems consistant to koummya blades of these regions. I will have to see if I can find more on other examples to see if they could date back further.

It is truly fascinating to hear this perspective on the gemstones on this piece, especially knowing of your clearly well versed knowledge and experience on this topic (now I understand the psuedonym !. It becomes really exciting when evaluating a piece when the stones used offer such historic potential!
So the emeralds in Egypt were substandard to those found in Colombia, and the mining ceased entirely after the 1500's? It does seem that in regions of North Africa, time really does stand still in many ways, and anachronism prevails. If these gemstones were part of an early cache from early trade interaction or raids, common in Saharan tribal culture, it does seem possible they might have been secreted away for hundreds of years.

It seems like new discoveries are constantly being revealed in these remote regions, like the fact that Timbuktu, once considered 'the middle of nowhere' hence the oft used expression, was actually a cultural and academic center, far beyond the dusty, mud building trade stop in the middle of the Sahara.

I think gemstones are fascinating as well, and am currently in Arizona, and have been travelling through the southwest. The history and lore of the turquoise, malachite, and other stones is beyond compelling, and once you are taken in by it, you simply cannot stop trying to learn more! While I am admittedly a complete novice, the fascination has no bounds, and now that you have brought this piece in with these mysterious gemstones...I want to learn more.

Can you possibly show the scabbard, even if not entirely complete?
Do you mean that the techniques and tools used in mounting these on the hilt and scabbard, and the cut on the stones are pre-1500's?
Is it possible that these are indeed very old stones held as heirlooms or hidden away as ancestral treasure, and that the tools and techniques used follow old traditional methods and implements? In indiginous tribal areas it seems that ancient methods prevail in many instances, especially in more remote regions and in the case of tribes who live essentially as they have for countless centuries.

It is both interesting and exciting that you have approached the research on this dagger in such depth, including the outstanding work on the history of this family. With your expertise in jewelry and gemstones, along with the mystery of those used in the mounting of the dagger, this does indeed get more fun!
In the words of Carroll....."curiouser and curiouser!".

Lets keep working on it OK? Has Dr. Ann looked at the blade BTW?

All very best regards,
Jim
.

19th October 2017, 11:15 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th April 2008, 05:23 PM Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: here's a better shot of the marking that i made a few minutes ago: the blade is also marked closer to the tip can you see what it is yet? fairly good replica of a high ranking autro-hungarian hussar sabre, and a LOT cheaper than the original. just thought i'd show that just because it's marked doesn't mean it's not a copy or a blade marked to make it look classier. the marks are pretty clear examples tho, supposedly copied from the original in a museum. made in germany (solingen) tho this year, instead of the mid-18th c., the marks are laser cut . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:58 AM.

19th October 2017, 11:16 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Trade marks, etchings? Old 9th October 2008, 08:11 PM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Hello everyone. Dr. Ann was kind enough to recommend this forum for your informed input. This Saracen was part of the Morossini collection and de-ascensioned in the early 60's. I am especially intrigued by the engravings in the blade as well as to what appears to be the camel bone grip. The metal on the grip acid tests to be 24kt gold with a Nubian emerald in the butt. I have included photos taken at 30X of the blade, but I can only tell you that there is iron included in the marriage of metals. At the base of the blade the flower (?) acid tests as silver. There is an emerald and ruby studded gold sheath that accompanies it, but sadly was "repaired" somewhere prior to 1963. At this time I am carefully restoring the sheath with hopes to keep the integrity of the piece. If anyone can give me some input on this item of intrigue, I would greatly appreciate it. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:14 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:16 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 11th October 2008, 05:26 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Bjeweled, and welcome to the forum! This is indeed an intriguing piece, and very attractive along with a most distinguished provenance. In my opinion, this is essentially a remounted 'koummya', which is the Moroccan version of the Arab janbiyya dagger. The blade is of the basic koummya profile, though the fullers are not commonly seen on most examples, suggesting this may be an earlier blade. The intricate outlined motif on the blade seem to be in line with decorative motif on blades in Maghrebi regions, though I have not found exact duplicate of the zigzag linear. The hilt is most unusual, and completely atypical for koummya, with the camel bone, gold mounted, and jeweled likely intended to honor a heirloom blade. The markings on the horn grip seem to be selected decoratively rather than specifically symbolic, and to carry aesthetically traditional theme. The 'ichthys' or fish symbol, is of course considered a Christian symbol today, however in early times it was a Greek alphabetic symbol. Interestingly, through the Phoenicians presence in North Africa, this symbol became the letter 'f' in the ancient Berber alphabet, though it seems doubtful that this representation is intended in this motif. The 'Star of Solomon' or 'Star of David' seems to even further complicate the markings on this weapon which would be most likely from Muslim regions in Morocco. Again, this six point star, now immediately associated with the Jewish Faith as the 'Magen David' (shield of David), had much earlier origins,with its intersecting triangles presenting complex symbolism in various cultures and religions. Having noted these comments on these familiar symbols, it is important to note here that in art and decoration in North Africa in particular, such symbols were often used incongruently when intended simply as geometric motif. The blade on this dagger seems to have some age, and as noted, is quite possibly a heirloom, with such remounting typically difficult to assess as far as age, especially with precious metal which does not reveal patination and aging as in standard metals. An intriguing and extremely attractive item, likely refurbished for either presentation or as a keepsake for a person of importance. Thank you so much for sharing it here! All best regards, Jim P.S. Just found some zig zag info in notes suggesting that the Fulani and Dogon used this motif, likely putting this to the south of Morocco toward Mali. Not surprising! Trade routes...camels.....seems to fit pretty well. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:00 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:17 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 12th October 2008, 12:27 AM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Default Thank you Jim! I so appreciate your input on this. To give you a little more background on this piece...there was a tag on the saracen, from the auction house, stating "TAKEN DURING THE SECOND CRUSADE". After researching the Morosini family I discovered an aristocratic family with lineage dating to 1148 when Domenico Morosini was elected Doge of Venice. With the Second Crusade taking place from 1147 through 1149...hmmm. Considering Giovanni Morosini (the collector) was given a desk by his brother that once belonged to Napolean I would presume his family were collectors as well and keepers of their family lot. This may be a bit of a presumption, but I wonder if the Doge was the original Venetian owner of this Saracen. I agree with the possibility of the blade being remounted. Kudos to the artistian who matched the zig zag pattern from the blade to the hilt. New York Times Archives; July 19, 1902 Sept. 16, 1932 Time Magazine; Oct. 17. 1932 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:01 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:21 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Posted by: Jim McDougall You're most welcome Bejeweled, I enjoyed the research and it really is an attractive dagger. It sounds as if this Italian family has some very impressive lineage, and now that the crusades connection is revealed, the use of the antiquated term Saracen is explained. It is not unusual to see items of unusually elevated provenance appearing in auctions and sale catalogs. I do not believe this blade, though earlier than most examples commonly found, could date much further back than the 18th century, possibly into the early 19th. As I noted, the zigzag motif seems to be somewhat a Saharan motif, and was likely added at the time the blade was mounted in the present horn mounts etc. It is not unusual to see most unusual items in the eclectic holdings of wealthy and noble collectors, and these items were purposely gathered to impressively decorate parlors and smoking rooms in Victorian times. I believe this item may have quite interesting provenance into this apparantly esteemed collection, but personally doubt the crusades part of it. What are the cites to New York Times and Time magazine referencing? All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:03 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:22 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Again, thank you! Old 12th October 2008, 03:17 AM Posted by: bjeweled Member Join Date: Aug 2008 That so makes sense. I appreciate your passion and knowledge about this. There is another interesting factor... The Nubian (Egyptian) emerald on the butt and the ones in the sheath haven't been mined since the mid 1500's upon the discovery of Columbia and their far more beautiful gemstones. Since I had to remove the emeralds from their bezels on the sheath to be able to do the soldering required to improve a terrible repair, I discovered a backing on the stones. Further investigating and magnification shows it to be a mixture of crushed malachite and bees wax, a technique used for thousands of years. Upon magnification of the emerald in the butt it has never been removed and has the same backing. So either the artisan stock piled the emeralds for 200 to 300 years or the sheath and grip were created long before the blade, or possibly the age of the blade is a bit older. As you referred to the fullers...just maybe? The techniques and tools used for the gold work and cutting of the gemstones is applicable of an earlier period than the 1500's. Oh...I am a master jeweler with over 3 decades of experience, and an avid gemstone lover and collector. This is so much fun, thank you again! It just becomes more interesting... Yes, the cites are in reference to research on the Morosini's. Kindest regards, Bjeweled . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 12:04 PM.