The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 5th January 2008, 05:01 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

It sure is Fernando!

Interesting illustration of the IHS with the cross, and it seems very much in line with a lot of the markings we are reviewing. I wonder if a 'Christogram' like this would appear as a marking on weapons, I dont recall seeing any exactly like this, but many quite close.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 21st April 2008, 04:46 PM

Posted by:
TVV
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

For future reference, here is a picture of the markings on a blade, mounted with a Moroccan hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=28907&stc=1

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[fernando]

Old 21st April 2008, 05:30 PM

Posted by:
CourseEight
Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Coral Springs, FL

That's a good idea, I'll toss in a link to my Ottoman naval dirk with what appears to be a French smallsword blade (or thusly inspired):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6263

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[fernando]

Old 27th April 2008, 04:10 PM

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK:


feeling devilish, i thought i'd throw these in to the pot.

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[fernando]

Old 27th April 2008, 05:23 PM

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK:

here's a better shot of the marking that i made a few minutes ago:


the blade is also marked closer to the tip


can you see what it is yet?



fairly good replica of a high ranking autro-hungarian hussar sabre, and a LOT cheaper than the original. just thought i'd show that just because it's marked doesn't mean it's not a copy or a blade marked to make it look classier. the marks are pretty clear examples tho, supposedly copied from the original in a museum.

made in germany (solingen) tho this year, instead of the mid-18th c., the marks are laser cut

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[fernando]

Old 9th October 2008, 08:11 PM

Posted by:
bjeweled
Member

Join Date: Aug 2008


Hello everyone. Dr. Ann was kind enough to recommend this forum for your informed input. This Saracen was part of the Morossini collection and de-ascensioned in the early 60's. I am especially intrigued by the engravings in the blade as well as to what appears to be the camel bone grip. The metal on the grip acid tests to be 24kt gold with a Nubian emerald in the butt. I have included photos taken at 30X of the blade, but I can only tell you that there is iron included in the marriage of metals. At the base of the blade the flower (?) acid tests as silver. There is an emerald and ruby studded gold sheath that accompanies it, but sadly was "repaired" somewhere prior to 1963. At this time I am carefully restoring the sheath with hopes to keep the integrity of the piece. If anyone can give me some input on this item of intrigue, I would greatly appreciate it.

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 11th October 2008, 05:26 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hi Bjeweled, and welcome to the forum!
This is indeed an intriguing piece, and very attractive along with a most distinguished provenance. In my opinion, this is essentially a remounted 'koummya', which is the Moroccan version of the Arab janbiyya dagger. The blade is of the basic koummya profile, though the fullers are not commonly seen on most examples, suggesting this may be an earlier blade.
The intricate outlined motif on the blade seem to be in line with decorative motif on blades in Maghrebi regions, though I have not found exact duplicate of the zigzag linear.

The hilt is most unusual, and completely atypical for koummya, with the camel bone, gold mounted, and jeweled likely intended to honor a heirloom blade. The markings on the horn grip seem to be selected decoratively rather than specifically symbolic, and to carry aesthetically traditional theme.

The 'ichthys' or fish symbol, is of course considered a Christian symbol today, however in early times it was a Greek alphabetic symbol. Interestingly, through the Phoenicians presence in North Africa, this symbol became the letter 'f' in the ancient Berber alphabet, though it seems doubtful that this representation is intended in this motif.

The 'Star of Solomon' or 'Star of David' seems to even further complicate the markings on this weapon which would be most likely from Muslim regions in Morocco. Again, this six point star, now immediately associated with the Jewish Faith as the 'Magen David' (shield of David), had much earlier origins,with its intersecting triangles presenting complex symbolism in various cultures and religions.

Having noted these comments on these familiar symbols, it is important to note here that in art and decoration in North Africa in particular, such symbols were often used incongruently when intended simply as geometric motif.

The blade on this dagger seems to have some age, and as noted, is quite possibly a heirloom, with such remounting typically difficult to assess as far as age, especially with precious metal which does not reveal patination and aging as in standard metals.

An intriguing and extremely attractive item, likely refurbished for either presentation or as a keepsake for a person of importance.

Thank you so much for sharing it here!

All best regards,
Jim


P.S. Just found some zig zag info in notes suggesting that the Fulani and Dogon used this motif, likely putting this to the south of Morocco toward Mali. Not surprising! Trade routes...camels.....seems to fit pretty well.
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