The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:13 PM

Old 17th December 2007, 03:22 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Rick, thank you for explaining that on shear steel, a term I have heard but did not really understand. I wish I had an answer to return on the marking on the Moroccan sa'if, but as I say, though I have seen similar I have no distinct name to offer..yet. We never stop looking! There are possibilities in the references I have mentioned, and whoever gets to them will hopefully find some clues.
We have made some good progress on some of the other frequently seen markings on ethnographic weapons with European blades, and as always, the research continues.

Fernando, I'm still with you on the strong possibility of cabalistic origins in many of these markings, so we'll keep looking. I think there is key symbolism in the three sequence of the 'S's on the lance too. In an interesting aside, reading on pirate flags (prompted by the discovery of the ship that had been the notorious Captain Kidd's) I found that the skull and crossbones was not as prominantly used as typically represented, and that one pirate captain used the symbol repeated 'three' times. Symbolism, found even with these scoundrels of the sea it seems.
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:14 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Just reviewing some inscriptions on rapier blades and one had the Solingen example I.H.N. Solingen

This seems to suggest an acronym or primary letters of some other phrase or wording in the punctuation.

Another German blade 17th c. PETER WUNDES IHN SOLINGEN
While this seems to read by this maker 'in' Solingen, in German grammar the 'ihn' goes not mean 'in'.

Another Italian rapier c.1650 IHN. SOLINGEN punctuated between

Another Italian c.1620 I.H.N. entirely by itself suggesting obviously by the punctuation between the letters that they may be primary letters of a phrase or wording rather than a word itself.

* Solingen blades noting that as a 'place' of manufacture often have variations of ME FECIT SOLINGEN (Solingen made me)

Another note on the triple repitition :
An Italian rapier c.1650 NE.NE.NE
What could this mean? but the three emphasis is clear!

While on another Italian rapier of the same period:
A.S.H.S. repeated many times
again this seems primary letters of words in a phrase, emphasized
by repitition as if to multiply the power of the phrase.

I think these examples are good support for your theory Fernando! But I still haven't come up with 'MENE' yet, but could this also be used in acronym form as in these other examples? rather than a single word.

The research continues

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:14 PM

Old 18th December 2007, 11:49 AM

Posted by:
E.B. Erickson
Member

Join Date: Dec 2007

Hey all,
A few weeks ago Jim asked me to add my two cent's worth to this thread, so here goes. I've read the posts to this point, and can offer some thoughts on several of the marks discussed. Please bear in mind that the comments are my opinions only, but where possible I'll provide some sort of reference.

First, I think that some of the anchor marks being discussed aren't anchors at all, but are crosses with some decorative touches to the base and with added crossbars. Many of these marks appear on Spanish blades, which was (is?) a predominantly Catholic country, so it isn't surprising to see crosses at the end of fullers. The differences in the designs may be due to smiths having a distinctive cross as an identifying mark (and a blade may or may not have the smith's name in the fuller). Other differences may be because there have been a lot of variations on the Christian cross over the years, and the crosses at the end of fullers can reflect local/smith preferences.

Solingen apparently used actual anchors as a mark (or some of it's smiths did), and these don't look much like the marks referred to in the paragraph above. In Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" there's a photo of a brass-hilted English cav. sword with S-shaped members to the basket, and the blade bears an anchor mark. I have in my collection an English sword of the late 1700s with a German blade, and the blade is etched in the fuller "Ihn Solingen" and at the end of the fuller is a nicely etched nautical anchor (but not a fouled anchor like one sees on naval swords).

On IHN SOLINGEN, I think the IHN really does mean "in". Remember that spelling back then was very phonetic, and there wasn't much in the way of standardization. Punch marks between letters may just be embellishment.

On MINI/MENE. One often sees this as INIMINI (what I want to know is, where is minymoe? --bad joke), and there was a suggestion on an old SFI thread that this may be an abbreviated form of the Latin IN TE DOMINI. Unfortunately, the thread is going to be about impossible to find, because it was one of those "What is this sword" threads. The sword happened to be English ca. 1700 with INIMINI in the blade's fullers.

And then there's Eastern blades with their own versions of European maker's marks. These can be tough to tell apart! For example, see eBay 190183023239, which ended a day or two ago. Euro or Eastern?

Oh well,that's enough for now! --ElJay
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:14 PM

Old 20th December 2007, 10:20 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Eljay , its so good to have you join in on this! Your knowledge and experience in these early European blades is well established and I really do appreciate your insight into some of these puzzling topics.

The so called anchor marks it seems, for some time were regarded by many as simply flourishes in the decorative motif on these early blades. As we have discussed, there were often cryptic anagrams, and coded wording and phrases applied on many blades carrying either patriotic or talismanic meanings, so equally imbued motif such as these multibar cross devices seem well placed.
I think that as you note, the religious symbolism may have been key in the Spanish applications, but possibly many of these might have been closely tied to the merchant marks prevalent from late 16th c. onward. Possibly these may have been the source for the term anchor.
As you note, there were German makers who used nautical devices such as the anchor, having nothing to do with maritime themes. I recall it seems, a sextant like device also.

Your point on the use of IHN is well placed as well, and it does seem that the phonetics might be used in the constant transliterations and variations in spellings. I have seen German made blades with the same Spanish name on opposite faces of the blade, each spelled differently. Possibly the maker tried to make the inscription appear more Latin? or religious? Possibly the same concept in abbreviated version of the Latin phrase as you note, INI MINI which makes sense, but still think maybe the MENE spelling might have other possibilities.

A question on East India Company marks, it seems the typically quadranted heart with the company initials VEIC does appear on bayonet blades of the 18th c. as well as firearms, but I havent ever seen it on a sword blade, have you? On the Dutch EIC the VOC does appear on hanger blades of the 18th century (I've only ever seen them on kastanes) but it seems they invariably have the year 1768 or close to that. Have you encountered swords with the VOC on the blade?

On the crosses/anchors it would be great if we could find some that distinctly appear with makers names so maybe we could associate?

Thank you again Eljay. I know you're busy and having you here on what is developing into a resource that will hopefully help us all in better understanding and recognizing these marks, is very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:15 PM

Old 23rd December 2007, 07:01 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

IN NOMINE DOMINE = In the name of the Lord.
For reasons connected with the evolution of the sword, during the XII century, as blades acquired a certain form, the spiritual and religious sense of the Knights ( Cruzaders ) caused the frequent appearance of certain phrases, as also or together with the inclusion of names of sword smiths, which had already been practised during the XI century, namely in the Solingen area.
Explicit phrases like IN NOMINE DOMINI, HOMO DEI ( man of God ), or BENEDICTUS DEUS MES ( My blessed God ), as also initials like NEDRC NEDRU (Nomine Eterni Dei Regis Caeli/Universi), or BOAC (Beati Omnipotensque Angeli Christi), would give place to composite situations like IN NOMINE DOMINE/CICE LINE ME FECIT, Cice Line naturaly being the smith.
Amazingly this type of inscriptions was seen firstly in central Europe and specially England, and only after it gained intensity in Spain, round the XIV century.
https://calderobruja.wordpress.com/2...la-edad-media/
I would therefore infer that later expressions like IN MENE, IHN MINI and the like, are no more than corruptions of IN DOMINE DOMINI.
Concerning the sugestion that the symbols resembling anchors are after all decorated crosses, could well be true, though a bit hard to swallow. Maybe some further evidence comes to light, one of these days.
All the best
Fernando.
,

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:15 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM

Posted by:
Dom
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)

Hi every body

just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present

source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992)

à +

Dom

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:16 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM

Posted by.
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts!

I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6
'
Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality.
The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality.

I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc...
These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...)

All the Best
.
Jeff

18th October 2017, 07:13 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 17th December 2007, 03:22 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Rick, thank you for explaining that on shear steel, a term I have heard but did not really understand. I wish I had an answer to return on the marking on the Moroccan sa'if, but as I say, though I have seen similar I have no distinct name to offer..yet. We never stop looking! There are possibilities in the references I have mentioned, and whoever gets to them will hopefully find some clues. We have made some good progress on some of the other frequently seen markings on ethnographic weapons with European blades, and as always, the research continues. Fernando, I'm still with you on the strong possibility of cabalistic origins in many of these markings, so we'll keep looking. I think there is key symbolism in the three sequence of the 'S's on the lance too. In an interesting aside, reading on pirate flags (prompted by the discovery of the ship that had been the notorious Captain Kidd's) I found that the skull and crossbones was not as prominantly used as typically represented, and that one pirate captain used the symbol repeated 'three' times. Symbolism, found even with these scoundrels of the sea it seems. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:36 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:14 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Fernando, Just reviewing some inscriptions on rapier blades and one had the Solingen example I.H.N. Solingen This seems to suggest an acronym or primary letters of some other phrase or wording in the punctuation. Another German blade 17th c. PETER WUNDES IHN SOLINGEN While this seems to read by this maker 'in' Solingen, in German grammar the 'ihn' goes not mean 'in'. Another Italian rapier c.1650 IHN. SOLINGEN punctuated between Another Italian c.1620 I.H.N. entirely by itself suggesting obviously by the punctuation between the letters that they may be primary letters of a phrase or wording rather than a word itself. * Solingen blades noting that as a 'place' of manufacture often have variations of ME FECIT SOLINGEN (Solingen made me) Another note on the triple repitition : An Italian rapier c.1650 NE.NE.NE What could this mean? but the three emphasis is clear! While on another Italian rapier of the same period: A.S.H.S. repeated many times again this seems primary letters of words in a phrase, emphasized by repitition as if to multiply the power of the phrase. I think these examples are good support for your theory Fernando! But I still haven't come up with 'MENE' yet, but could this also be used in acronym form as in these other examples? rather than a single word. The research continues All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:38 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:14 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 18th December 2007, 11:49 AM Posted by: E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Hey all, A few weeks ago Jim asked me to add my two cent's worth to this thread, so here goes. I've read the posts to this point, and can offer some thoughts on several of the marks discussed. Please bear in mind that the comments are my opinions only, but where possible I'll provide some sort of reference. First, I think that some of the anchor marks being discussed aren't anchors at all, but are crosses with some decorative touches to the base and with added crossbars. Many of these marks appear on Spanish blades, which was (is?) a predominantly Catholic country, so it isn't surprising to see crosses at the end of fullers. The differences in the designs may be due to smiths having a distinctive cross as an identifying mark (and a blade may or may not have the smith's name in the fuller). Other differences may be because there have been a lot of variations on the Christian cross over the years, and the crosses at the end of fullers can reflect local/smith preferences. Solingen apparently used actual anchors as a mark (or some of it's smiths did), and these don't look much like the marks referred to in the paragraph above. In Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" there's a photo of a brass-hilted English cav. sword with S-shaped members to the basket, and the blade bears an anchor mark. I have in my collection an English sword of the late 1700s with a German blade, and the blade is etched in the fuller "Ihn Solingen" and at the end of the fuller is a nicely etched nautical anchor (but not a fouled anchor like one sees on naval swords). On IHN SOLINGEN, I think the IHN really does mean "in". Remember that spelling back then was very phonetic, and there wasn't much in the way of standardization. Punch marks between letters may just be embellishment. On MINI/MENE. One often sees this as INIMINI (what I want to know is, where is minymoe? --bad joke), and there was a suggestion on an old SFI thread that this may be an abbreviated form of the Latin IN TE DOMINI. Unfortunately, the thread is going to be about impossible to find, because it was one of those "What is this sword" threads. The sword happened to be English ca. 1700 with INIMINI in the blade's fullers. And then there's Eastern blades with their own versions of European maker's marks. These can be tough to tell apart! For example, see eBay 190183023239, which ended a day or two ago. Euro or Eastern? Oh well,that's enough for now! --ElJay . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:39 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:14 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th December 2007, 10:20 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Eljay , its so good to have you join in on this! Your knowledge and experience in these early European blades is well established and I really do appreciate your insight into some of these puzzling topics. The so called anchor marks it seems, for some time were regarded by many as simply flourishes in the decorative motif on these early blades. As we have discussed, there were often cryptic anagrams, and coded wording and phrases applied on many blades carrying either patriotic or talismanic meanings, so equally imbued motif such as these multibar cross devices seem well placed. I think that as you note, the religious symbolism may have been key in the Spanish applications, but possibly many of these might have been closely tied to the merchant marks prevalent from late 16th c. onward. Possibly these may have been the source for the term anchor. As you note, there were German makers who used nautical devices such as the anchor, having nothing to do with maritime themes. I recall it seems, a sextant like device also. Your point on the use of IHN is well placed as well, and it does seem that the phonetics might be used in the constant transliterations and variations in spellings. I have seen German made blades with the same Spanish name on opposite faces of the blade, each spelled differently. Possibly the maker tried to make the inscription appear more Latin? or religious? Possibly the same concept in abbreviated version of the Latin phrase as you note, INI MINI which makes sense, but still think maybe the MENE spelling might have other possibilities. A question on East India Company marks, it seems the typically quadranted heart with the company initials VEIC does appear on bayonet blades of the 18th c. as well as firearms, but I havent ever seen it on a sword blade, have you? On the Dutch EIC the VOC does appear on hanger blades of the 18th century (I've only ever seen them on kastanes) but it seems they invariably have the year 1768 or close to that. Have you encountered swords with the VOC on the blade? On the crosses/anchors it would be great if we could find some that distinctly appear with makers names so maybe we could associate? Thank you again Eljay. I know you're busy and having you here on what is developing into a resource that will hopefully help us all in better understanding and recognizing these marks, is very much appreciated. All the very best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:39 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:15 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Eureka ? Old 23rd December 2007, 07:01 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal IN NOMINE DOMINE = In the name of the Lord. For reasons connected with the evolution of the sword, during the XII century, as blades acquired a certain form, the spiritual and religious sense of the Knights ( Cruzaders ) caused the frequent appearance of certain phrases, as also or together with the inclusion of names of sword smiths, which had already been practised during the XI century, namely in the Solingen area. Explicit phrases like IN NOMINE DOMINI, HOMO DEI ( man of God ), or BENEDICTUS DEUS MES ( My blessed God ), as also initials like NEDRC NEDRU (Nomine Eterni Dei Regis Caeli/Universi), or BOAC (Beati Omnipotensque Angeli Christi), would give place to composite situations like IN NOMINE DOMINE/CICE LINE ME FECIT, Cice Line naturaly being the smith. Amazingly this type of inscriptions was seen firstly in central Europe and specially England, and only after it gained intensity in Spain, round the XIV century. https://calderobruja.wordpress.com/2...la-edad-media/ I would therefore infer that later expressions like IN MENE, IHN MINI and the like, are no more than corruptions of IN DOMINE DOMINI. Concerning the sugestion that the symbols resembling anchors are after all decorated crosses, could well be true, though a bit hard to swallow. Maybe some further evidence comes to light, one of these days. All the best Fernando. , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:30 PM.

18th October 2017, 07:16 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM Posted by. Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts! I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6 ' Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality. The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality. I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc... These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...) All the Best . Jeff Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:42 AM.