The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:05 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 03:20 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Yay!!! Its great to see you here Rick!!!!
This is again, what this thread is about....European and as seen here, British blades on distinctly ethnographic weapons. It is really interesting that the British had pretty well established trade in the Maghreb in the very early 17th century, and English nobles and merchants are shown in portraits wearing these 'nimcha's. Although typically considered Moroccan they did diffuse throughout the littoral and as you note, were locally termed sa'if rather than the collectors term nimcha.

This is an actual makers mark similar to something I have seen before, but if I recall was unable to find a reliable match. It is an unusually stylized mark that has degraded considerably, and does seem of the period you suggest as the blade seems British and corresponding.
We need 'the books' on this one.....Jeff and Fernando!!! help. Gyngell, Boeheim, Lenciewicz.

Thank you for joining us here on the thread Rick. While we're looking, could you please explain the term 'shear' steel. I'm pretty 'uh' ,rusty ,on my metallurgy and would like to know more on that.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:12 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jeff,

Originally Posted by Jeff D
Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? (Quote)

Jeff

A trend yes, but maybe not an exclusive situation. I guess these trade symbols had a condition to be copied or even adopted by other Peoples, who later developed their own evolutions and modifications. I am thinking of the example shown in post #50, where the cross over the orb was a typical Portuguese Chivalry Order. We also know that there are cases where something that was adopted from another culture, place or people became so popularized by the "copier/adopter" that, for the public conscience, such thing was their own creation.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:12 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 04:09 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere? (Quote)

I am no more than a mere ignorant, but i have a deep conviction that these terms refer something spiritual/cabalistic/religious, in no way a place, a factory, or the like.
The hipothesis of being some symbolic situation relative to be numbered, as per Daniel's profecies, would not be yet finally outruled. Probably the explanation, not being precisely this, will be its neighbour.
I keep trying to find out, within my modest possibilities.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:12 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 04:10 PM

Postd by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

Shear Steel
Thanks for the welcome Jim !

From another site :

" Shear Steel - Before the development of Crucible Steel, Blister Steel was forged by repeated folding and forge welding to mix the areas of high and low carbon steel. Shear Steel was the lowest quality generally created and further folding and welding created Double Shear Steel. Long regarded as ideal for blades and cutting edges, primarily because the slag trapped within the steel lead to a serrated edge without it being purposely formed. "

I say this about the blade because there are some curious areas on one side that look as if they have eroded/rusted in layers .
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:13 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 04:35 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.
Jim (Quote)

Thank you for the new perspectives on the marking of the lance, which i will seriously consider. This piece was bought by my seller to the keeper of an old country farm ( mannor ) house, in an area full of old nobility estates. The lady quoted the lance as being from the "house defences". The hunting lance is not marked and therefore off topic, but i can add is also Portuguese.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:13 PM

Old 17th December 2007, 03:22 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Rick, thank you for explaining that on shear steel, a term I have heard but did not really understand. I wish I had an answer to return on the marking on the Moroccan sa'if, but as I say, though I have seen similar I have no distinct name to offer..yet. We never stop looking! There are possibilities in the references I have mentioned, and whoever gets to them will hopefully find some clues.
We have made some good progress on some of the other frequently seen markings on ethnographic weapons with European blades, and as always, the research continues.

Fernando, I'm still with you on the strong possibility of cabalistic origins in many of these markings, so we'll keep looking. I think there is key symbolism in the three sequence of the 'S's on the lance too. In an interesting aside, reading on pirate flags (prompted by the discovery of the ship that had been the notorious Captain Kidd's) I found that the skull and crossbones was not as prominantly used as typically represented, and that one pirate captain used the symbol repeated 'three' times. Symbolism, found even with these scoundrels of the sea it seems.
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:14 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Just reviewing some inscriptions on rapier blades and one had the Solingen example I.H.N. Solingen

This seems to suggest an acronym or primary letters of some other phrase or wording in the punctuation.

Another German blade 17th c. PETER WUNDES IHN SOLINGEN
While this seems to read by this maker 'in' Solingen, in German grammar the 'ihn' goes not mean 'in'.

Another Italian rapier c.1650 IHN. SOLINGEN punctuated between

Another Italian c.1620 I.H.N. entirely by itself suggesting obviously by the punctuation between the letters that they may be primary letters of a phrase or wording rather than a word itself.

* Solingen blades noting that as a 'place' of manufacture often have variations of ME FECIT SOLINGEN (Solingen made me)

Another note on the triple repitition :
An Italian rapier c.1650 NE.NE.NE
What could this mean? but the three emphasis is clear!

While on another Italian rapier of the same period:
A.S.H.S. repeated many times
again this seems primary letters of words in a phrase, emphasized
by repitition as if to multiply the power of the phrase.

I think these examples are good support for your theory Fernando! But I still haven't come up with 'MENE' yet, but could this also be used in acronym form as in these other examples? rather than a single word.

The research continues

All the best,
Jim
.

18th October 2017, 07:05 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 16th December 2007, 03:20 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Yay!!! Its great to see you here Rick!!!! This is again, what this thread is about....European and as seen here, British blades on distinctly ethnographic weapons. It is really interesting that the British had pretty well established trade in the Maghreb in the very early 17th century, and English nobles and merchants are shown in portraits wearing these 'nimcha's. Although typically considered Moroccan they did diffuse throughout the littoral and as you note, were locally termed sa'if rather than the collectors term nimcha. This is an actual makers mark similar to something I have seen before, but if I recall was unable to find a reliable match. It is an unusually stylized mark that has degraded considerably, and does seem of the period you suggest as the blade seems British and corresponding. We need 'the books' on this one.....Jeff and Fernando!!! help. Gyngell, Boeheim, Lenciewicz. Thank you for joining us here on the thread Rick. While we're looking, could you please explain the term 'shear' steel. I'm pretty 'uh' ,rusty ,on my metallurgy and would like to know more on that. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:31 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:12 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 16th December 2007, 03:55 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jeff, Originally Posted by Jeff D Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? (Quote) Jeff A trend yes, but maybe not an exclusive situation. I guess these trade symbols had a condition to be copied or even adopted by other Peoples, who later developed their own evolutions and modifications. I am thinking of the example shown in post #50, where the cross over the orb was a typical Portuguese Chivalry Order. We also know that there are cases where something that was adopted from another culture, place or people became so popularized by the "copier/adopter" that, for the public conscience, such thing was their own creation. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:32 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:12 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 16th December 2007, 04:09 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere? (Quote) I am no more than a mere ignorant, but i have a deep conviction that these terms refer something spiritual/cabalistic/religious, in no way a place, a factory, or the like. The hipothesis of being some symbolic situation relative to be numbered, as per Daniel's profecies, would not be yet finally outruled. Probably the explanation, not being precisely this, will be its neighbour. I keep trying to find out, within my modest possibilities. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:33 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:12 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 16th December 2007, 04:10 PM Postd by: Rick Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Shear Steel Thanks for the welcome Jim ! From another site : " Shear Steel - Before the development of Crucible Steel, Blister Steel was forged by repeated folding and forge welding to mix the areas of high and low carbon steel. Shear Steel was the lowest quality generally created and further folding and welding created Double Shear Steel. Long regarded as ideal for blades and cutting edges, primarily because the slag trapped within the steel lead to a serrated edge without it being purposely formed. " I say this about the blade because there are some curious areas on one side that look as if they have eroded/rusted in layers . . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:34 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:13 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 17th December 2007, 03:22 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Rick, thank you for explaining that on shear steel, a term I have heard but did not really understand. I wish I had an answer to return on the marking on the Moroccan sa'if, but as I say, though I have seen similar I have no distinct name to offer..yet. We never stop looking! There are possibilities in the references I have mentioned, and whoever gets to them will hopefully find some clues. We have made some good progress on some of the other frequently seen markings on ethnographic weapons with European blades, and as always, the research continues. Fernando, I'm still with you on the strong possibility of cabalistic origins in many of these markings, so we'll keep looking. I think there is key symbolism in the three sequence of the 'S's on the lance too. In an interesting aside, reading on pirate flags (prompted by the discovery of the ship that had been the notorious Captain Kidd's) I found that the skull and crossbones was not as prominantly used as typically represented, and that one pirate captain used the symbol repeated 'three' times. Symbolism, found even with these scoundrels of the sea it seems. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:36 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:14 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Fernando, Just reviewing some inscriptions on rapier blades and one had the Solingen example I.H.N. Solingen This seems to suggest an acronym or primary letters of some other phrase or wording in the punctuation. Another German blade 17th c. PETER WUNDES IHN SOLINGEN While this seems to read by this maker 'in' Solingen, in German grammar the 'ihn' goes not mean 'in'. Another Italian rapier c.1650 IHN. SOLINGEN punctuated between Another Italian c.1620 I.H.N. entirely by itself suggesting obviously by the punctuation between the letters that they may be primary letters of a phrase or wording rather than a word itself. * Solingen blades noting that as a 'place' of manufacture often have variations of ME FECIT SOLINGEN (Solingen made me) Another note on the triple repitition : An Italian rapier c.1650 NE.NE.NE What could this mean? but the three emphasis is clear! While on another Italian rapier of the same period: A.S.H.S. repeated many times again this seems primary letters of words in a phrase, emphasized by repitition as if to multiply the power of the phrase. I think these examples are good support for your theory Fernando! But I still haven't come up with 'MENE' yet, but could this also be used in acronym form as in these other examples? rather than a single word. The research continues All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:38 AM.