The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:03 PM

Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,023

Hi Jim,
Just a little detail ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote).

I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ?
Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:04 PM

Old 13th December 2007, 10:41 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I have these very old lances, supposedly one from the XVI and other from the XVII centuries.
The older one would be for hunting and the "newer" one for defence ... with butt spike and all that.
Both appear to have been made by regional smiths.
The defence one has on both blade sides three times the letter S deeply stroke. I don't think is a maker's mark, with all that exuberance. Besides, local smiths in that time were not allowed to make arms for their own trade, but only by order of some important client. So in my humble view, the marks are either the family or heraldic initials of some mannor house or, and here goes my fantasy, some kind of mystic mighty symbol.
The hunting lance has no marks, but i take this chance to show both pieces, as both are kept close, and also because i am pleased to have these two specimens in my little collection
Sorry for the abuse
Fernando

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:04 PM

Old 15th December 2007, 12:23 AM

Posted by
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

You're right Fernando, trying to determine the meaning of words inscribed on blades can be extremely difficult, especially when there are words used that are possibly transliterated, such as often happened in Solingen work. There are also archaic terms that might have had certain meaning in earlier times, as I suggested with the allegorical metaphor. The mene alluded to a coin, also termed 'mina' and in some variation meant 'to be counted'. I have not been able to find anything worthwhile on IHN (in German ='it' which seems unlikely).
Admittedly this line of suggestion is 'way out of the box' but seemed worth mentioning.
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:04 PM

Old 15th December 2007, 07:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere?
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:05 PM

Old 15th December 2007, 10:38 PM

Posted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

Flogging A Dead Horse Here ....
Please !
Can anyone identify this mark on what is most likely an English Shear Steel backsword from the late 17th - early 18th century ?

(missing attachments)

Currently mounted as a N. African (Algerian?) Sayf .
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:05 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 03:20 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Yay!!! Its great to see you here Rick!!!!
This is again, what this thread is about....European and as seen here, British blades on distinctly ethnographic weapons. It is really interesting that the British had pretty well established trade in the Maghreb in the very early 17th century, and English nobles and merchants are shown in portraits wearing these 'nimcha's. Although typically considered Moroccan they did diffuse throughout the littoral and as you note, were locally termed sa'if rather than the collectors term nimcha.

This is an actual makers mark similar to something I have seen before, but if I recall was unable to find a reliable match. It is an unusually stylized mark that has degraded considerably, and does seem of the period you suggest as the blade seems British and corresponding.
We need 'the books' on this one.....Jeff and Fernando!!! help. Gyngell, Boeheim, Lenciewicz.

Thank you for joining us here on the thread Rick. While we're looking, could you please explain the term 'shear' steel. I'm pretty 'uh' ,rusty ,on my metallurgy and would like to know more on that.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:12 PM

Old 16th December 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jeff,

Originally Posted by Jeff D
Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? (Quote)

Jeff

A trend yes, but maybe not an exclusive situation. I guess these trade symbols had a condition to be copied or even adopted by other Peoples, who later developed their own evolutions and modifications. I am thinking of the example shown in post #50, where the cross over the orb was a typical Portuguese Chivalry Order. We also know that there are cases where something that was adopted from another culture, place or people became so popularized by the "copier/adopter" that, for the public conscience, such thing was their own creation.
Fernando
.

18th October 2017, 07:03 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 6,023 Hi Jim, Just a little detail ... Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote). I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ? Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:25 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:04 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fantasy with the "S" Old 13th December 2007, 10:41 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal I have these very old lances, supposedly one from the XVI and other from the XVII centuries. The older one would be for hunting and the "newer" one for defence ... with butt spike and all that. Both appear to have been made by regional smiths. The defence one has on both blade sides three times the letter S deeply stroke. I don't think is a maker's mark, with all that exuberance. Besides, local smiths in that time were not allowed to make arms for their own trade, but only by order of some important client. So in my humble view, the marks are either the family or heraldic initials of some mannor house or, and here goes my fantasy, some kind of mystic mighty symbol. The hunting lance has no marks, but i take this chance to show both pieces, as both are kept close, and also because i am pleased to have these two specimens in my little collection Sorry for the abuse Fernando (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:11 PM.

18th October 2017, 07:04 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th December 2007, 12:23 AM Posted by Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 You're right Fernando, trying to determine the meaning of words inscribed on blades can be extremely difficult, especially when there are words used that are possibly transliterated, such as often happened in Solingen work. There are also archaic terms that might have had certain meaning in earlier times, as I suggested with the allegorical metaphor. The mene alluded to a coin, also termed 'mina' and in some variation meant 'to be counted'. I have not been able to find anything worthwhile on IHN (in German ='it' which seems unlikely). Admittedly this line of suggestion is 'way out of the box' but seemed worth mentioning. The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases. I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information. Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:28 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:04 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th December 2007, 07:44 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:28 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:05 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 16th December 2007, 03:20 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Yay!!! Its great to see you here Rick!!!! This is again, what this thread is about....European and as seen here, British blades on distinctly ethnographic weapons. It is really interesting that the British had pretty well established trade in the Maghreb in the very early 17th century, and English nobles and merchants are shown in portraits wearing these 'nimcha's. Although typically considered Moroccan they did diffuse throughout the littoral and as you note, were locally termed sa'if rather than the collectors term nimcha. This is an actual makers mark similar to something I have seen before, but if I recall was unable to find a reliable match. It is an unusually stylized mark that has degraded considerably, and does seem of the period you suggest as the blade seems British and corresponding. We need 'the books' on this one.....Jeff and Fernando!!! help. Gyngell, Boeheim, Lenciewicz. Thank you for joining us here on the thread Rick. While we're looking, could you please explain the term 'shear' steel. I'm pretty 'uh' ,rusty ,on my metallurgy and would like to know more on that. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:31 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:12 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 16th December 2007, 03:55 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jeff, Originally Posted by Jeff D Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? (Quote) Jeff A trend yes, but maybe not an exclusive situation. I guess these trade symbols had a condition to be copied or even adopted by other Peoples, who later developed their own evolutions and modifications. I am thinking of the example shown in post #50, where the cross over the orb was a typical Portuguese Chivalry Order. We also know that there are cases where something that was adopted from another culture, place or people became so popularized by the "copier/adopter" that, for the public conscience, such thing was their own creation. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:32 AM.