The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:02 PM

Old 12th December 2007, 02:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I regret not having been able to help feeding this vital thread some further. Museums don't allow for pictures, and book authors don't respond to query emails .
I can only refer to two more examples inventoried in the Viscount of Pindela collection, which is now partly exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, in Guimarães ... with a rope keeping the visitors at distance
One of them, item #70 of the book, a XVIII century cast brass hilt sword with later engraving works, with a curved blade, has in both sides the following inscription:
X EN XX MENÊ XX
In the end of the inscription there is a symbol, naturaly the maker's punction, which represents an anchor, with its top decorated in cross ... as per the book quotation.
The other one, item #73 of the book, a XVIII century sword, with a cofin shaped pommel. The blade, narrow but elegant, has a little fuller and, inside it, in both sides, in major font, the following legend:
" IHN " MINI "

I have emailed the Author of "As Armas e os Barões", asking him to clarify his definition of "fear of God", concerning the legend IN MENE in a sword contained in his book, but i had no answer up to now.

I know the above isn't much; i just hope it's better than nothing

All the best
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:02 PM

Old 12th December 2007, 11:03 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend?

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:03 PM

Old 13th December 2007, 06:05 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Its good to have you guys back at it here!!
Jeff, you may have something there. While the 'anchor' seems inclined to the Spanish blades, and as you note, the cross and orb seem aligned with the Solingen blades...what is puzzling is the anchors on the German blades with spurious Spanish signatures and inscriptions. Conversely, I dont think the orb and cross occurs on Spanish or Portuguese blades does it?

Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. As far as I can find, the word 'mene' seems to have connections to a Biblical allegory in the Book of Daniel, and has to do with the foretelling of the fall of Babylon in the appearance of mysterious symbols on the kings wall. The term 'mene' is interpreted by Daniel to mean that God had numbered the days of his kingdom. Is has been discovered that the term also represented a monetary value, but that has been explained allegorically to note the number interpretation.
This story has led to the well known phrase, "the writing is on the wall" and possibly the inscription has some similar meaning i.e. your days are numbered or something on these lines. Perhaps the rather morose theme of the sword with the coffin shaped pommel corresponded with the inscription?

On the one blade it is interesting that the IHN is repeated three times. It seems that often acronyms, symbols or marks are repeated in this manner noting the numeric significance in emphasizing the symbolism. i.e. the kings head mark repeated four times in line; ANDREA FERARA repeated four times in sequence, and these 'X's often occurring in twos punctuating phrases or words. These are the examples that come to mind, but surely there are others.

Thanks for keeping us going guys!!!

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:03 PM

Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,023

Hi Jim,
Just a little detail ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote).

I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ?
Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:04 PM

Old 13th December 2007, 10:41 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I have these very old lances, supposedly one from the XVI and other from the XVII centuries.
The older one would be for hunting and the "newer" one for defence ... with butt spike and all that.
Both appear to have been made by regional smiths.
The defence one has on both blade sides three times the letter S deeply stroke. I don't think is a maker's mark, with all that exuberance. Besides, local smiths in that time were not allowed to make arms for their own trade, but only by order of some important client. So in my humble view, the marks are either the family or heraldic initials of some mannor house or, and here goes my fantasy, some kind of mystic mighty symbol.
The hunting lance has no marks, but i take this chance to show both pieces, as both are kept close, and also because i am pleased to have these two specimens in my little collection
Sorry for the abuse
Fernando

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:04 PM

Old 15th December 2007, 12:23 AM

Posted by
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

You're right Fernando, trying to determine the meaning of words inscribed on blades can be extremely difficult, especially when there are words used that are possibly transliterated, such as often happened in Solingen work. There are also archaic terms that might have had certain meaning in earlier times, as I suggested with the allegorical metaphor. The mene alluded to a coin, also termed 'mina' and in some variation meant 'to be counted'. I have not been able to find anything worthwhile on IHN (in German ='it' which seems unlikely).
Admittedly this line of suggestion is 'way out of the box' but seemed worth mentioning.
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:04 PM

Old 15th December 2007, 07:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere?
.

18th October 2017, 07:02 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 12th December 2007, 02:52 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, I regret not having been able to help feeding this vital thread some further. Museums don't allow for pictures, and book authors don't respond to query emails . I can only refer to two more examples inventoried in the Viscount of Pindela collection, which is now partly exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, in Guimarães ... with a rope keeping the visitors at distance One of them, item #70 of the book, a XVIII century cast brass hilt sword with later engraving works, with a curved blade, has in both sides the following inscription: X EN XX MENÊ XX In the end of the inscription there is a symbol, naturaly the maker's punction, which represents an anchor, with its top decorated in cross ... as per the book quotation. The other one, item #73 of the book, a XVIII century sword, with a cofin shaped pommel. The blade, narrow but elegant, has a little fuller and, inside it, in both sides, in major font, the following legend: " IHN " MINI " I have emailed the Author of "As Armas e os Barões", asking him to clarify his definition of "fear of God", concerning the legend IN MENE in a sword contained in his book, but i had no answer up to now. I know the above isn't much; i just hope it's better than nothing All the best Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:22 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:02 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 12th December 2007, 11:03 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:23 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:03 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th December 2007, 06:05 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Jeff and Fernando, Its good to have you guys back at it here!! Jeff, you may have something there. While the 'anchor' seems inclined to the Spanish blades, and as you note, the cross and orb seem aligned with the Solingen blades...what is puzzling is the anchors on the German blades with spurious Spanish signatures and inscriptions. Conversely, I dont think the orb and cross occurs on Spanish or Portuguese blades does it? Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. As far as I can find, the word 'mene' seems to have connections to a Biblical allegory in the Book of Daniel, and has to do with the foretelling of the fall of Babylon in the appearance of mysterious symbols on the kings wall. The term 'mene' is interpreted by Daniel to mean that God had numbered the days of his kingdom. Is has been discovered that the term also represented a monetary value, but that has been explained allegorically to note the number interpretation. This story has led to the well known phrase, "the writing is on the wall" and possibly the inscription has some similar meaning i.e. your days are numbered or something on these lines. Perhaps the rather morose theme of the sword with the coffin shaped pommel corresponded with the inscription? On the one blade it is interesting that the IHN is repeated three times. It seems that often acronyms, symbols or marks are repeated in this manner noting the numeric significance in emphasizing the symbolism. i.e. the kings head mark repeated four times in line; ANDREA FERARA repeated four times in sequence, and these 'X's often occurring in twos punctuating phrases or words. These are the examples that come to mind, but surely there are others. Thanks for keeping us going guys!!! All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:24 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:03 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 6,023 Hi Jim, Just a little detail ... Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote). I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ? Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:25 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:04 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fantasy with the "S" Old 13th December 2007, 10:41 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal I have these very old lances, supposedly one from the XVI and other from the XVII centuries. The older one would be for hunting and the "newer" one for defence ... with butt spike and all that. Both appear to have been made by regional smiths. The defence one has on both blade sides three times the letter S deeply stroke. I don't think is a maker's mark, with all that exuberance. Besides, local smiths in that time were not allowed to make arms for their own trade, but only by order of some important client. So in my humble view, the marks are either the family or heraldic initials of some mannor house or, and here goes my fantasy, some kind of mystic mighty symbol. The hunting lance has no marks, but i take this chance to show both pieces, as both are kept close, and also because i am pleased to have these two specimens in my little collection Sorry for the abuse Fernando (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:11 PM.