The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:30 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 02:21 AM

Posted by:
Alan62
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Jim
I am amazed by this thread and thank you and the many knowledgable contributors for it.
I do not mean to intrude ,but with such a wealth of knowledgable folks regarding marks,I wondered if perhaps the mystery on this one could be solved as I have searched far and wide
You might remember it
Again
Thank You and the others for such a great thread and the information made available throughout this entire site

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:30 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 02:34 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Alan,
Thank you so much for the very kind words and posting your sword blade with the interesting marks. This is exactly the kind of response and participation I had hoped for with this thread, where all of us can share information, display examples and develop what I am convinced will become a valuable resource that will be available to all of us.

I am hoping that those with access to the reference compendiums on markings might be able to locate this marking. I would suggest, without access to references, that the marking represents a bird in flight. This symbol is known to have been used in variation with certain religious connotation, which of course is as we have discussed, often the basis for many of these markings and phrases. With that said, I am hoping others might either note instances where this marking has appeared, or locate the mark associated with particular maker in the references.

The diagonally striated panel at the forte is very familiar and while I cannot place the decoration at the moment, I do suspect it was an 18th century affectation.

Would it be possible to see the entire sword?, as this is important as well to identify the region and period in which it was mounted.

Thank you so much Alan!

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:31 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 05:30 PM

Posted by:
Alan62
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hi Jim and Thank you again
I will post a pic of the entire sword It is one that you and I discussed about a year ago
I also hope that perhaps someone will recognize and Id the diagonal pattern
Thanks Again

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:31 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 07:01 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Alan,
Two beautiful sabres!!! Thank you for showing them in full.
I honestly cannot recall the details of previous discussion on the sabre at the top that we are discussing though it does seem familiar. This sword type is basically the English officers backsword/straight sabre known as the 'spadroon'. These were popular from about 1780 until roughly 1820, and are typically characterized by the five beads or balls on the crossguard and knucklebow. While it seems that the style originated in England, it apparantly was loosely adopted in France and in America during the Federal period.

The hilt on yours is quite atypical of those seen on the English spadroons, and the crosshatching on the grip seems to reflect either Polish or French influence. The karabela form pommel portion of the grip suggests the beloved Polish sabres, and Eastern European cavalry fashions profoundly were influencing Continental and English military at the end of the 18th century.

The interesting decorated square panel at the forte also seems to appear on a number of French sword blades of the late 18th century, as well as seen on Polish blades of much earlier. I still have not located the diagonally striated square panel as appears on yours, but seems to correspond stylistically to those I have mentioned.

It would seem your straight sabre/spadroon might well be an English officers of about 1780-90, as these officers were often highly motivated by Continental military fashion. This is of course well illustrated by the styles and weaponry adopted particularly in cavalry regiments in the latter 18th century.

While the identification doesnt really help much with the marking, I just wanted the sword type and period defined to hopefully put more direction to possibilities on the marking.

C'mon guys...we need the markings books!!!

All the best,
Jim

The second sabre is a Napoleonic period yeomanry officers sabre, again, with the ivory grips reflecting the influence of many Polish cavalry sabres.
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:32 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 07:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on.
Jim (Quote)

No, i wasn't correcting you at all ... on the contrary
That was precisely to remind that, the name of Ayala spelt that way, is a sign that the piece, despite its apparent quality, was not his procuction.
Not that the anchor doesn't appear in Spanish swords. I was browsing the Net on Master Ayala and found a very interesting site,
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp
from where i brought the attached illustration, where we can see a brass sail hilt Dragoon sword, made in Barcelona by Magi Closas ( 1760-1780 ). The article author fully characterizes the marks ... the allusion to the King and to the Regiment, Closas punction, as well as the arrow, the symbol of Barcelona dagger smiths Guild since the 17th century, but it pays no attention to the anchor, as if this were a secondary detail, like a decoration. It is yet to be known whether this is an esoteric symbol, a religious one, or just a decoration hybrid.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:33 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 08:11 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

It is my guess it is a religious one from all that I have read since this posting was started. I have few more links to get through and then I shall show several different styles of anchors and crosses that we have all seen and will attach the acompanying texts to further support this.
I have also attached below an excavated rapier with the running wolf symbol and DOMINI that has been covered so far in the discussion. It came out of the Danube many years ago.

regards

Gav
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:33 PM

Old 30th November 2007, 02:10 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Ahah! Fernando..........that makes sense, the misspelling suggests the work of somebody else...i.e. Solingen! I read somewhere also that some of these crafty German workers even produced some less than standard pieces and deliberately placed spurious famed Spanish names on them to discredit the product. That claim seems dubious though, as I have not yet seen any substandard blades from either of these competing markets and frankly by the end of the 16th century, Toledo was little competition as its sword production had diminished dramatically.

Interesting on the arrow of the Barcelona smiths guild. I always wonder how a particular symbol was selected as the mark for each guild or maker. I tried to use that link but didnt find the Closas reference. It is indeed interesting that the anchor is not considered worthy of note.

I think that to determine more on the imbued meaning associated with these particular items of motif, we need to discover consistancies that occur with certain makers blades. Since these characteristically have differences from subtle to pronounced, we can presume symbolism is present, and since religious symbolism is known to often include talismanic esoterica in these times, the meanings can only be imagined. To the uninitiated, these would represent only flourished motif, but to the client who carried the sword with his life in the balance, the deep symbolism was likely pronounced.
I think the anchors, cross and orb were intended to talismanically punctuate and emphasize the marks, names or inscriptions they appear with.

Thank you very much Fernando, excellent post as always!

In the exotic places that those who carried these weapons went with trade and often campaign, the native people became well aware of the deep pride and confidence with which they were regarded. Naturally they presumed that the blades of these weapons would give them equal power in thiers.

What is most interesting is how the commonly reproduced markings on native blades were chosen above others. There were so many markings on many European blades, yet there is such a select group chosen; the sickle marks, the moons, Andrea Ferara, et al. In most cases the blades found with many unusual markings are the European produced blades.

Gav, there you go! Nice photos and very nice rapier. You guys are really putting in terrific examples here! I am really looking forward to the anchors and crosses you describe and as noted, this will help us find some recurrent forms hopefully.
Thank you again for posting this and for helping us with compiling this thread.

With all very best regards,
Jim
.

18th October 2017, 06:30 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 02:21 AM Posted by: Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Jim I am amazed by this thread and thank you and the many knowledgable contributors for it. I do not mean to intrude ,but with such a wealth of knowledgable folks regarding marks,I wondered if perhaps the mystery on this one could be solved as I have searched far and wide You might remember it Again Thank You and the others for such a great thread and the information made available throughout this entire site . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:02 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:30 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 02:34 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Alan, Thank you so much for the very kind words and posting your sword blade with the interesting marks. This is exactly the kind of response and participation I had hoped for with this thread, where all of us can share information, display examples and develop what I am convinced will become a valuable resource that will be available to all of us. I am hoping that those with access to the reference compendiums on markings might be able to locate this marking. I would suggest, without access to references, that the marking represents a bird in flight. This symbol is known to have been used in variation with certain religious connotation, which of course is as we have discussed, often the basis for many of these markings and phrases. With that said, I am hoping others might either note instances where this marking has appeared, or locate the mark associated with particular maker in the references. The diagonally striated panel at the forte is very familiar and while I cannot place the decoration at the moment, I do suspect it was an 18th century affectation. Would it be possible to see the entire sword?, as this is important as well to identify the region and period in which it was mounted. Thank you so much Alan! All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:03 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:31 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 05:30 PM Posted by: Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Hi Jim and Thank you again I will post a pic of the entire sword It is one that you and I discussed about a year ago I also hope that perhaps someone will recognize and Id the diagonal pattern Thanks Again . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:04 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:31 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 07:01 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Alan, Two beautiful sabres!!! Thank you for showing them in full. I honestly cannot recall the details of previous discussion on the sabre at the top that we are discussing though it does seem familiar. This sword type is basically the English officers backsword/straight sabre known as the 'spadroon'. These were popular from about 1780 until roughly 1820, and are typically characterized by the five beads or balls on the crossguard and knucklebow. While it seems that the style originated in England, it apparantly was loosely adopted in France and in America during the Federal period. The hilt on yours is quite atypical of those seen on the English spadroons, and the crosshatching on the grip seems to reflect either Polish or French influence. The karabela form pommel portion of the grip suggests the beloved Polish sabres, and Eastern European cavalry fashions profoundly were influencing Continental and English military at the end of the 18th century. The interesting decorated square panel at the forte also seems to appear on a number of French sword blades of the late 18th century, as well as seen on Polish blades of much earlier. I still have not located the diagonally striated square panel as appears on yours, but seems to correspond stylistically to those I have mentioned. It would seem your straight sabre/spadroon might well be an English officers of about 1780-90, as these officers were often highly motivated by Continental military fashion. This is of course well illustrated by the styles and weaponry adopted particularly in cavalry regiments in the latter 18th century. While the identification doesnt really help much with the marking, I just wanted the sword type and period defined to hopefully put more direction to possibilities on the marking. C'mon guys...we need the markings books!!! All the best, Jim The second sabre is a Napoleonic period yeomanry officers sabre, again, with the ivory grips reflecting the influence of many Polish cavalry sabres. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:05 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:32 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 07:52 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. Jim (Quote) No, i wasn't correcting you at all ... on the contrary That was precisely to remind that, the name of Ayala spelt that way, is a sign that the piece, despite its apparent quality, was not his procuction. Not that the anchor doesn't appear in Spanish swords. I was browsing the Net on Master Ayala and found a very interesting site, http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp from where i brought the attached illustration, where we can see a brass sail hilt Dragoon sword, made in Barcelona by Magi Closas ( 1760-1780 ). The article author fully characterizes the marks ... the allusion to the King and to the Regiment, Closas punction, as well as the arrow, the symbol of Barcelona dagger smiths Guild since the 17th century, but it pays no attention to the anchor, as if this were a secondary detail, like a decoration. It is yet to be known whether this is an esoteric symbol, a religious one, or just a decoration hybrid. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:06 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:33 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The Anchor Old 29th November 2007, 08:11 PM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 It is my guess it is a religious one from all that I have read since this posting was started. I have few more links to get through and then I shall show several different styles of anchors and crosses that we have all seen and will attach the acompanying texts to further support this. I have also attached below an excavated rapier with the running wolf symbol and DOMINI that has been covered so far in the discussion. It came out of the Danube many years ago. regards Gav . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:08 PM.