The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:26 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 06:51 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thanks again for the additional cross and orbs. I'd like to work some more on these, and it seems that in Wagner, he notes these were used to enclose names, inscriptions etc. by being placed at beginning and end. Perhaps the 'four crosses' were used in the same manner on the nimcha posted.

Fernando, thank you for your gentlemanly concern on what might have been considered infringement, but I think not the case. well handled and I hope we can work more on these 'anchors' which clearly were used considerably on Spanish blades and German made blades purported to be. I am wondering if these appeared on other blades, English, Italian?

Gavin, the sword you mention by Johannes Brach, was Brach one of the Hounslow smiths or was he actually working in Solingen? I am of course very interested in the three crosses and 'S' markings. The calendar would seem to imply this might have been a hunting sword ? as auspicious days (Saints days) were important to observe in hunting etc. at least this is as described in Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons").
I see you also had communications with Mr. Evans as I mentioned I had earlier and I also wonder how he is doing with the miniature weapons, which he was intrigued with when I last heard from himsome years ago. I have sent him an email (which I hope is still correct) and am hoping for his response.

I am wondering if we might start to examine the well known 'sickle' or 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoa, later Styria, Solingen and the Caucasian 'Gurda' blades. Any thoughts on what this paired, toothed or ribbed half circles mark might represent? each of the semi-circles is terminated with three dots typically, the Trinity? the numeric three seems extremely important and consistantly employed in various markings and repitition of them.

On another thread, David has posted a well weathered 'firangi' which he has obtained, which is remarkable in that it is still in original mountings and holds a rapier blade. This is an important item as it illustrates how the markings on these early blades, even rapier blades, are often key in researching many forms of ethnographic weapons.

With all best regards, and thanks for these contribitions guys!
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:27 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 08:53 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

Hi Jeff,

The paragraph in the "Treasues of the Tower of London", page 51, reads..

A number of old swordsmiths named Johannis Brach are recorded in Solingen at different times. Two other signatures, that of Jan and Arnoldt, are recorded with the unicorn walking along.

As for a hunting sword...maybe, maybe not, it has been shortened at some time in it's life and remains at healthy 41.2" with a blade length of 35.2". It appears though, that he may have used this in his charge at Oudenarde in 1708.
The blade is dated to approx 1700. There is further reference made regarding literature; Duffy & Borg, European swords and daggers in the Tower of London, p33, pl.92a.(IX1243).

Hope this helps some

Also on page 79 of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham's Illustrated catalog of civil war military goods there is a great page of 6 images of Solingen and Damascus unfitted blades that where available to soldiers during the war.

regards

Gavin
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:28 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 09:17 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
This is something for you to digest and figure out.
It seems as the anchor symbol appears both as a mark and as a decoration. We can see in Evans work that the anchor was assigned to British cuttler (?) William Justice in 1664, but he also pretends that this symbol, struck in Italian blades, also shown in the book, was merely a decoration. Needless to say we are navigating in strange waters, as his business is bayonets and the makers he quotes are cuttlers ... whatever that means, for the case.
I am posting pictures of an anchor punction on a Tomas Aiala ( not Ayala) sword, which i mentioned the other day, as well as the pages referring Evans material on both anchor mark and decoration.
All the best
Fernando
-

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:29 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
I too think it might just be decoration, here are a few images of a gorgeous blade I saw a few years ago, Spanish, the style was the 1728 cavalry sword pattern but of the highest quality I have ever seen. If you look close at the first image you will see it is not symetrical, there is a cirle on one side of the base of the anchor and a cresent the other, anchor aside, does this represent day and night?

Great work Fernando.

regards

Gavin
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:29 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 12:55 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Gavin, thank you so much for answering my question on the sword cutler Brach, and for posting that remarkable sword...nicely referenced! and it is interesting to know about the Solingen marks in the Civil War book. It is interesting that most of the first issue of the M1840 "Wristbreaker" were produced in Solingen before Ames picked up the contract.
On the King George sword, it would seem the blade is a bit long for a hunting sword, but the auspicious significance extended to warfare as well in the astrological sense.

Excellent deduction on noting the presence of crescent moon and sun on either side of this fascinating decoration or marking. The symbolism of these two figures is of course present in many variations on European blades, and the talismanic implication seems quite plausible though can only be speculated upon. While decoration can easily be assumed to be intended only aesthetically, I feel that the ever present superstition, even though only accepted nominally, still had a great degree of serious consideration. Even in present times, soldiers will apply great attention to good luck charms and many forms of talismanically intended measures.

Fernando, you continually amaze me with the beautifully done graphics you post and the way you highlight key passages and key in on markings!! Thank you for always adding such great presentation. The material in Evans book tells me I desperately need to get hold of my copy!!! Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. It seems there was some clarity issues on the use of these 'anchors' by makers in quite different centers as well. There was such intense competition between all of these blade centers, trying to define exactly who used which marks is going to be very difficult, but I think we have a running start!

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:30 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 02:21 AM

Posted by:
Alan62
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Jim
I am amazed by this thread and thank you and the many knowledgable contributors for it.
I do not mean to intrude ,but with such a wealth of knowledgable folks regarding marks,I wondered if perhaps the mystery on this one could be solved as I have searched far and wide
You might remember it
Again
Thank You and the others for such a great thread and the information made available throughout this entire site

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:30 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 02:34 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Alan,
Thank you so much for the very kind words and posting your sword blade with the interesting marks. This is exactly the kind of response and participation I had hoped for with this thread, where all of us can share information, display examples and develop what I am convinced will become a valuable resource that will be available to all of us.

I am hoping that those with access to the reference compendiums on markings might be able to locate this marking. I would suggest, without access to references, that the marking represents a bird in flight. This symbol is known to have been used in variation with certain religious connotation, which of course is as we have discussed, often the basis for many of these markings and phrases. With that said, I am hoping others might either note instances where this marking has appeared, or locate the mark associated with particular maker in the references.

The diagonally striated panel at the forte is very familiar and while I cannot place the decoration at the moment, I do suspect it was an 18th century affectation.

Would it be possible to see the entire sword?, as this is important as well to identify the region and period in which it was mounted.

Thank you so much Alan!

All very best regards,
Jim
.

18th October 2017, 06:26 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th November 2007, 06:51 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Jeff, thanks again for the additional cross and orbs. I'd like to work some more on these, and it seems that in Wagner, he notes these were used to enclose names, inscriptions etc. by being placed at beginning and end. Perhaps the 'four crosses' were used in the same manner on the nimcha posted. Fernando, thank you for your gentlemanly concern on what might have been considered infringement, but I think not the case. well handled and I hope we can work more on these 'anchors' which clearly were used considerably on Spanish blades and German made blades purported to be. I am wondering if these appeared on other blades, English, Italian? Gavin, the sword you mention by Johannes Brach, was Brach one of the Hounslow smiths or was he actually working in Solingen? I am of course very interested in the three crosses and 'S' markings. The calendar would seem to imply this might have been a hunting sword ? as auspicious days (Saints days) were important to observe in hunting etc. at least this is as described in Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons"). I see you also had communications with Mr. Evans as I mentioned I had earlier and I also wonder how he is doing with the miniature weapons, which he was intrigued with when I last heard from himsome years ago. I have sent him an email (which I hope is still correct) and am hoping for his response. I am wondering if we might start to examine the well known 'sickle' or 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoa, later Styria, Solingen and the Caucasian 'Gurda' blades. Any thoughts on what this paired, toothed or ribbed half circles mark might represent? each of the semi-circles is terminated with three dots typically, the Trinity? the numeric three seems extremely important and consistantly employed in various markings and repitition of them. On another thread, David has posted a well weathered 'firangi' which he has obtained, which is remarkable in that it is still in original mountings and holds a rapier blade. This is an important item as it illustrates how the markings on these early blades, even rapier blades, are often key in researching many forms of ethnographic weapons. With all best regards, and thanks for these contribitions guys! Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:54 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Johannis Brach Old 28th November 2007, 08:53 PM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Hi Jeff, The paragraph in the "Treasues of the Tower of London", page 51, reads.. A number of old swordsmiths named Johannis Brach are recorded in Solingen at different times. Two other signatures, that of Jan and Arnoldt, are recorded with the unicorn walking along. As for a hunting sword...maybe, maybe not, it has been shortened at some time in it's life and remains at healthy 41.2" with a blade length of 35.2". It appears though, that he may have used this in his charge at Oudenarde in 1708. The blade is dated to approx 1700. There is further reference made regarding literature; Duffy & Borg, European swords and daggers in the Tower of London, p33, pl.92a.(IX1243). Hope this helps some Also on page 79 of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham's Illustrated catalog of civil war military goods there is a great page of 6 images of Solingen and Damascus unfitted blades that where available to soldiers during the war. regards Gavin . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:55 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:28 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Still with the anchor Old 28th November 2007, 09:17 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, This is something for you to digest and figure out. It seems as the anchor symbol appears both as a mark and as a decoration. We can see in Evans work that the anchor was assigned to British cuttler (?) William Justice in 1664, but he also pretends that this symbol, struck in Italian blades, also shown in the book, was merely a decoration. Needless to say we are navigating in strange waters, as his business is bayonets and the makers he quotes are cuttlers ... whatever that means, for the case. I am posting pictures of an anchor punction on a Tomas Aiala ( not Ayala) sword, which i mentioned the other day, as well as the pages referring Evans material on both anchor mark and decoration. All the best Fernando - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:58 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:29 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Anchor Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 PM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 I too think it might just be decoration, here are a few images of a gorgeous blade I saw a few years ago, Spanish, the style was the 1728 cavalry sword pattern but of the highest quality I have ever seen. If you look close at the first image you will see it is not symetrical, there is a cirle on one side of the base of the anchor and a cresent the other, anchor aside, does this represent day and night? Great work Fernando. regards Gavin . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:00 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:29 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 12:55 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Gavin, thank you so much for answering my question on the sword cutler Brach, and for posting that remarkable sword...nicely referenced! and it is interesting to know about the Solingen marks in the Civil War book. It is interesting that most of the first issue of the M1840 "Wristbreaker" were produced in Solingen before Ames picked up the contract. On the King George sword, it would seem the blade is a bit long for a hunting sword, but the auspicious significance extended to warfare as well in the astrological sense. Excellent deduction on noting the presence of crescent moon and sun on either side of this fascinating decoration or marking. The symbolism of these two figures is of course present in many variations on European blades, and the talismanic implication seems quite plausible though can only be speculated upon. While decoration can easily be assumed to be intended only aesthetically, I feel that the ever present superstition, even though only accepted nominally, still had a great degree of serious consideration. Even in present times, soldiers will apply great attention to good luck charms and many forms of talismanically intended measures. Fernando, you continually amaze me with the beautifully done graphics you post and the way you highlight key passages and key in on markings!! Thank you for always adding such great presentation. The material in Evans book tells me I desperately need to get hold of my copy!!! Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. It seems there was some clarity issues on the use of these 'anchors' by makers in quite different centers as well. There was such intense competition between all of these blade centers, trying to define exactly who used which marks is going to be very difficult, but I think we have a running start! All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:01 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:30 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 02:21 AM Posted by: Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Jim I am amazed by this thread and thank you and the many knowledgable contributors for it. I do not mean to intrude ,but with such a wealth of knowledgable folks regarding marks,I wondered if perhaps the mystery on this one could be solved as I have searched far and wide You might remember it Again Thank You and the others for such a great thread and the information made available throughout this entire site . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:02 PM.