The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:08 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to.
He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book.

Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!!

Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though.

Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ?

I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers.

Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark.

Thank you so much guys for these latest entries!

All best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:08 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 06:40 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

We were warned by Dr. Lee Jones that, due to the recent spam measures, new member first postings would spend a couple days in quarantine, before they get visible in the respective thread.
However it didn't occur (to me) that they keep their position in the posting sequence relative to the date they were emited. This is then why posting #44 has appeared today, but dated and positioned as from two days ago.
Greetings to new member Don F., and thanks for the examples he has posted to enrich this theme. I am sure Jim will have a say at such pieces interest.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:21 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Don F.
Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry.

The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades.

The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades.

The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term.
These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!!

Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies.

All very best regards,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:22 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, .
Perfect, isn't it?
( I hope i am not exagerating )
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:23 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 PM

Posted by:
S.Al-Anizi
Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Arabia

Thanks Jim and all other guys for this rich thread, definetly deserves being a sticky.

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:24 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 09:41 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for posting the 'anchor' this is the symbol I was alluding to before and it reminded me that it was on LEW's kaskara (not nimcha). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sudan+german

In the process of trying to find LEW's kaskara I found Jim's four crosses thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=nimcha+german
I will see what I can find on them now that I know what to look for.

Thanks and welcome Don F. That mort is exactly what i was talking about with Hounslow hilts with German blades.

Good Stuff
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:24 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 10:22 PM

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding responses guys, and now we are rollin' !!!
Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links.
S.Al Anizi, thank you so much for the kind words and acknowledging the thread, which is developing just as I had hoped to prove a valuable resource for us all.

I hope everyone is noting and reviewing the thread as we go as when a thread becomes multipaged it is often easy to miss important posts, just as I did with Don's significant contribution.

Jeff, thank you for finding the crosses! The three crosses I saw were linear, and as noted on one of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas. These crosses 'pattee' are in an interesting configuration, and seem in a cross pattern itself. We do know that the four cardinal directions were key in folk religion, and again, we wonder if the duplicity here is intended to compound the potential talismanic potency.

Thank you guys!
All best regards,
Jim
.

18th October 2017, 06:08 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to. He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book. Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!! Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ? I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers. Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark. Thank you so much guys for these latest entries! All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:40 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:08 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Invisible posting Old 26th November 2007, 06:40 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal We were warned by Dr. Lee Jones that, due to the recent spam measures, new member first postings would spend a couple days in quarantine, before they get visible in the respective thread. However it didn't occur (to me) that they keep their position in the posting sequence relative to the date they were emited. This is then why posting #44 has appeared today, but dated and positioned as from two days ago. Greetings to new member Don F., and thanks for the examples he has posted to enrich this theme. I am sure Jim will have a say at such pieces interest. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:41 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:21 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Don F. Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry. The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades. The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades. The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term. These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!! Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies. All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:45 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:23 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 PM Posted by: S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Thanks Jim and all other guys for this rich thread, definetly deserves being a sticky. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:47 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:24 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 09:41 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Fernando, Thanks for posting the 'anchor' this is the symbol I was alluding to before and it reminded me that it was on LEW's kaskara (not nimcha). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sudan+german In the process of trying to find LEW's kaskara I found Jim's four crosses thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=nimcha+german I will see what I can find on them now that I know what to look for. Thanks and welcome Don F. That mort is exactly what i was talking about with Hounslow hilts with German blades. Good Stuff Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:48 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:22 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A nice anchor Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, . Perfect, isn't it? ( I hope i am not exagerating ) Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 08:02 PM.