The Issue of Ivory

Tim Simmons · 8th October 2017, 05:16 PM

I could and will agree with all that has been said. However ivory is just another material like plastic except natural. The situation could promote a deeper appreciation of other materials or what we see as art and I have to say it what we believe to be " high end " a ghastly term. Some of the ivory "high end " is not worked in any remarkable art way, the only value is because people have been led to believe in the value. This is now going to change like many fashions and ideas in history. Sorry if it adds to the upset.

Rick · 8th October 2017, 05:50 PM

Is it ironic that even Mammoth ivory falls under this proscription?

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2017, 11:26 PM

You may well be right Tim.

However, ivory has been a part of the Human Experience for tens of thousands of years. I rather feel that an appreciation of ivory is locked firmly into the sub-conscious of many people, and that this inherited attitude crosses the boundaries of culture and society.

Can a momentary change in societal attitudes affect the heritage of the Human Experience?

Personally, I doubt that it can.

There may be a hiatus in the use and appreciation of ivory, a hiatus that will surely come to an end.

When the pendulum swings too far one way, it has nowhere to go except to swing back again, and eventually it comes to rest in the centre.

As this applies to ivory, perhaps during the Colonial Era there was an over-use of ivory, perhaps this overuse continued past the time when it could be supported, the result was that the pendulum swung too far into the range of use. Now we have the probably predictable reaction of well intentioned people, and the pendulum is on the verge of swinging too far into the range of non-use. Eventually that pendulum will commence to swing back to the range of use, and after an even longer period of time it will come to rest within the range of acceptable use.

All things pass, including the idiocy of well intentioned but badly misguided Tree Huggers.

In the meantime, opportunities are being presented for those who are prepared to ignore regulation to increase their wealth.

Total bans do nothing but encourage criminal activity.

Adequate control and management is a better option.

mariusgmioc · 9th October 2017, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Total bans do nothing but encourage criminal activity.

Yes David, you are right! Got taken away by the wave!

David · 9th October 2017, 06:21 PM

Gentlemen, while i do appreciate that this is a trigger subject for all of us who have antique ivory somewhere in our collections and that we all need a moment to vent from time to time on such subjects i would really like to keep any discussion on this subject focussed solely upon it's relationship to keris collecting and completely devoid of political comments or opinions. Thanks!

David · 9th October 2017, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yes David, you are right! Got taken away by the wave!

Thanks for your understanding Marius. As we have discussed in the background amongst the moderators, the problem here is that for the most part this IS a political issue, yet i believe it can be discussed based upon facts and logic without digressing into partisan politics or name-calling. I realize the difficulty though. Thanks again!

drac2k · 9th October 2017, 10:43 PM

When the "Night Watch," or the "Danae," by Rembrandt were slashed with razors, the perpetrators were said to be mad.When the Taliban destroyed
6th-century Buddist statues, they were said to be backward, vandals, and Medieval; so what do we call it when our Governments carry out such acts?
What we are discussing is the destruction of art and history, which I dare say transcends politics.
The sad part of this ban on ivory is that as the governments get more aggressive in seizing the ivory, Rhinos and Elephants are being killed faster than they are being born by the poachers who are realizing higher prices for their ghoulish work; supply and demand.

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2017, 01:16 AM

Precisely.

Add to this the fact that there are more and more humans who need land that is also needed by elephants.

Sorry, but the jumbos just gotta go --- or the humans.

Guess who wins.

The problem is that most humans have the desire that elephants will continue to exist in the wild.

This is a many faceted problem, and any many faceted problem requires a suite of appropriate responses in order to ensure the possibility of solution.

This begins with determination of an objective, followed by identification of risks that can interfere with realisation of the objective, and the institution of a management plan that provides the tools to address the risks and then makes use of those tools.

But what do we get?

A knee jerk reaction.

In accordance with David's request, I will not make the appropriate political or anti-social comment at this point:- you all know what that comment is in any case, so I do not need to to make it.

8th October 2017, 05:50 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Shotgun Laws Is it ironic that even Mammoth ivory falls under this proscription?

8th October 2017, 05:16 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I could and will agree with all that has been said. However ivory is just another material like plastic except natural. The situation could promote a deeper appreciation of other materials or what we see as art and I have to say it what we believe to be " high end " a ghastly term. Some of the ivory "high end " is not worked in any remarkable art way, the only value is because people have been led to believe in the value. This is now going to change like many fashions and ideas in history. Sorry if it adds to the upset.

8th October 2017, 11:26 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	You may well be right Tim. However, ivory has been a part of the Human Experience for tens of thousands of years. I rather feel that an appreciation of ivory is locked firmly into the sub-conscious of many people, and that this inherited attitude crosses the boundaries of culture and society. Can a momentary change in societal attitudes affect the heritage of the Human Experience? Personally, I doubt that it can. There may be a hiatus in the use and appreciation of ivory, a hiatus that will surely come to an end. When the pendulum swings too far one way, it has nowhere to go except to swing back again, and eventually it comes to rest in the centre. As this applies to ivory, perhaps during the Colonial Era there was an over-use of ivory, perhaps this overuse continued past the time when it could be supported, the result was that the pendulum swung too far into the range of use. Now we have the probably predictable reaction of well intentioned people, and the pendulum is on the verge of swinging too far into the range of non-use. Eventually that pendulum will commence to swing back to the range of use, and after an even longer period of time it will come to rest within the range of acceptable use. All things pass, including the idiocy of well intentioned but badly misguided Tree Huggers. In the meantime, opportunities are being presented for those who are prepared to ignore regulation to increase their wealth. Total bans do nothing but encourage criminal activity. Adequate control and management is a better option.

9th October 2017, 06:21 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Gentlemen, while i do appreciate that this is a trigger subject for all of us who have antique ivory somewhere in our collections and that we all need a moment to vent from time to time on such subjects i would really like to keep any discussion on this subject focussed solely upon it's relationship to keris collecting and completely devoid of political comments or opinions. Thanks!

9th October 2017, 10:43 PM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	When the "Night Watch," or the "Danae," by Rembrandt were slashed with razors, the perpetrators were said to be mad.When the Taliban destroyed 6th-century Buddist statues, they were said to be backward, vandals, and Medieval; so what do we call it when our Governments carry out such acts? What we are discussing is the destruction of art and history, which I dare say transcends politics. The sad part of this ban on ivory is that as the governments get more aggressive in seizing the ivory, Rhinos and Elephants are being killed faster than they are being born by the poachers who are realizing higher prices for their ghoulish work; supply and demand.

10th October 2017, 01:16 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Precisely. Add to this the fact that there are more and more humans who need land that is also needed by elephants. Sorry, but the jumbos just gotta go --- or the humans. Guess who wins. The problem is that most humans have the desire that elephants will continue to exist in the wild. This is a many faceted problem, and any many faceted problem requires a suite of appropriate responses in order to ensure the possibility of solution. This begins with determination of an objective, followed by identification of risks that can interfere with realisation of the objective, and the institution of a management plan that provides the tools to address the risks and then makes use of those tools. But what do we get? A knee jerk reaction. In accordance with David's request, I will not make the appropriate political or anti-social comment at this point:- you all know what that comment is in any case, so I do not need to to make it.