Sword inscription

Reventlov · 4th October 2017, 01:05 AM

There are several other bearing swords of similar dimensions and physical features. Two in the Royal Armouries are generally identified as having belonged to either Henry IV or V, which would date them to the early 15th century. Other similar swords are usually not dated any more precisely than "15th-16th century". Note that the pommel of one of these is particularly similar to the so-called sword of Grutte Pier, as is another in the Rijksmuseum.

The suggestion of an "INRI" inscription is very plausible, this appears on a number of other examples. In particular it appears on another bearing sword that was formerly in the Higgins Armoury, as does the other mark, which is likely a representation of a bishop's crozier. As Jim says, this is one of the marks that is generally associated with Passau. This sword also has a pair of stamped marks very similar in style to those upon the sword in question.

For comparison, I include a drawing of the inscription on a sword in Vienna which I would suggest is more likely to be a Passau original, and not an imitation. The crozier is more clearly rendered, the famous wolf-mark is included, as is the text "INRI" (though the "N" was forgotten!)

NeilUK · 5th October 2017, 12:53 PM

I don't think we should dismiss Grutte Pier's sword as a late replica without positive evidence - which would need detailed examination in the 'flesh'.
There exist several very large Bearing or Ceremonial swords like this, some even bigger, with reasonable history. This sword is 213cm long but the 15th century Corvinus sword in Istanbul is 270cm long (the biggest that I know), Dresden has a 'Thing' (parliament) sword at 265.7cm, Edinburgh has the 'Sempill' sword, carried before Mary, Queen of Scots, at the battle of Langside, at 256cm, not to mention the two in the Royal Armouries posted by Reventlov, at 231 and 226.5cm respectively. There are lots more very big swords intended purely for ceremony not for combat, dating back to the 14th century.
Reventlov: could you tell us where the other swords are which you posted, apart from the 2 R.A. ones, especially the one with the very bent, or upside down, quillons. Thank you to all, esp. Bramiam for bringing this sword to our attention.
Neil

Reventlov · 5th October 2017, 02:08 PM

The photos did not appear in the order I intended them, to match my comments...

The first sword with the bent quillons is the one in the Rijksmuseum, then the second (with closeups) is from the Higgins, and is now in the Worcester art museum that retained some of the former collection.

NeilUK · 5th October 2017, 06:28 PM

Thanks, Reventlov.
I forgot to say that I have seen a blade mark very similar to that on G.P.D.'s sword on 2-hander blades made in S.Germany, probably Passau. My basic feeling is that Grutte Pier's sword is early 15th century.
Regards to all,
Neil

4th October 2017, 01:05 AM	#1
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 140	There are several other bearing swords of similar dimensions and physical features. Two in the Royal Armouries are generally identified as having belonged to either Henry IV or V, which would date them to the early 15th century. Other similar swords are usually not dated any more precisely than "15th-16th century". Note that the pommel of one of these is particularly similar to the so-called sword of Grutte Pier, as is another in the Rijksmuseum. The suggestion of an "INRI" inscription is very plausible, this appears on a number of other examples. In particular it appears on another bearing sword that was formerly in the Higgins Armoury, as does the other mark, which is likely a representation of a bishop's crozier. As Jim says, this is one of the marks that is generally associated with Passau. This sword also has a pair of stamped marks very similar in style to those upon the sword in question. For comparison, I include a drawing of the inscription on a sword in Vienna which I would suggest is more likely to be a Passau original, and not an imitation. The crozier is more clearly rendered, the famous wolf-mark is included, as is the text "INRI" (though the "N" was forgotten!) Attached Images

5th October 2017, 12:53 PM	#2
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	I don't think we should dismiss Grutte Pier's sword as a late replica without positive evidence - which would need detailed examination in the 'flesh'. There exist several very large Bearing or Ceremonial swords like this, some even bigger, with reasonable history. This sword is 213cm long but the 15th century Corvinus sword in Istanbul is 270cm long (the biggest that I know), Dresden has a 'Thing' (parliament) sword at 265.7cm, Edinburgh has the 'Sempill' sword, carried before Mary, Queen of Scots, at the battle of Langside, at 256cm, not to mention the two in the Royal Armouries posted by Reventlov, at 231 and 226.5cm respectively. There are lots more very big swords intended purely for ceremony not for combat, dating back to the 14th century. Reventlov: could you tell us where the other swords are which you posted, apart from the 2 R.A. ones, especially the one with the very bent, or upside down, quillons. Thank you to all, esp. Bramiam for bringing this sword to our attention. Neil

5th October 2017, 02:08 PM	#3
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 140	The photos did not appear in the order I intended them, to match my comments... The first sword with the bent quillons is the one in the Rijksmuseum, then the second (with closeups) is from the Higgins, and is now in the Worcester art museum that retained some of the former collection.

5th October 2017, 06:28 PM	#4
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	Thanks, Reventlov. I forgot to say that I have seen a blade mark very similar to that on G.P.D.'s sword on 2-hander blades made in S.Germany, probably Passau. My basic feeling is that Grutte Pier's sword is early 15th century. Regards to all, Neil