Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a further site expanding on the general dispute over the whole issue and goings on with the Shotley Bridge Swordmakers...

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blo...-john-g-bygate

See also page 34 of https://oldswords.com/articles/Small...ibles-v1i1.pdf

[urbanspaceman]

I'm afraid my contributions are coming out of sequence due to the moderator needing to pre-view; I'll need to allow longer gaps before I post.

[urbanspaceman]

With reference for my request for information about the roll-forge still at use in WKC Solingen: I spoke to Andre Willms at WKC and he referred me to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen, but unfortunately they were not able to help either. Somebody must know!

[urbanspaceman]

sorry, posted this prematurely; still getting used to the system and only wanted to preview not submit.

[urbanspaceman]

I gather Richard H. Bezdek passed away recently; and going by the one publication of his that I have acquired, I have to declare it is a tremendous loss to the sword collecting community.
So I want to do two things here (and Mr Moderator, if I am breaking forum rules please forgive me and delete, then I will know not to make the same mistake again), first, to acknowledge just how much work the man did in this field; and second, to clarify the beginnings of the Shotley Bridge endeavours - following my indication in an earlier post that it began with Johannes Dell (Bell), Peter Henekels and Heinrich Hoppe in 1685.
I will now quote from Mr Bezdek's book, because he has collated the odds and ends of information I had previously discovered quite perfectly, and if I had read his book first I could have saved myself a lot of searching:
Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland.
It all started when Sir John Heyden, while on a diplomatic mission in Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of King Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths. The Germans were supposedly refugees fleeing from the terrors of the Thirty Years War. He persuaded some of them to immigrate to England and work under royal patronage.
These swordsmiths were members of several sword-related crafts from Solingen, including Schwertschmeides (swordsmiths), Klingenschmieldes (bladesmiths/blade forgers), Schwertschleifer (sword/blade grinders), Schwertfegers (sword/blade polishers), and Schwertharters (sword/blade hardeners).
The route to England from Solingen went through the Netherlands and coastal Holland to Rotterdum and then to London. That is why many documents of the time referred to the Solingen Germans who immigrated to England as Dutch and why they called their blades “Dutch” blades.
The leading Germans who set up blade mills were bladesmiths of some stature in Solingen (i.e., guild members) who employed other Germans.
The following German bladesmiths (probably blade mill owners) signed their blades:
• Peter Munsten the Younger (changed name to Peter English), c. 1629–1642
• Johann Kindt (Kinndt, Kennett), c. 1629–1659
• Johannes Hoppe (Hoppie) the Younger, c. 1633–1642
• Caspar Karn (Carnis), c. 1629–1642
• Clemens (Clamas) Meigen, c. 1629–1642
• Caspar Fleiseh, c. 1629–1642
• Johannes Dell (Bell), c. 1649–1685
Other known German swordsmiths and bladesmiths working in Hounslow were:
• Johann Konigs (Connyne), c. 1629–1642
• Clemens Horn the Younger, c.1629–1642
• Ceile Herder, c. 1649–1659
• Peter Henekels (Henkell), c. 1660–1685
• Johannes Meigen, c. 1629–1642
• Heinrich (Henry) Hoppe (Hoppie) the Elder, c.1629–1642
• Joseph Hoppe Hoppie, c. 1629–1642
When the parliamentary forces took over the Hounslow sword and blade center in 1642, they confiscated the mills of the German bladesmiths obedient to the king. The only bladesmiths to remain obedient to the parliamentary forces were the Germans Johann Kindt (Kinndt), Ceile Herder and Johannes Dell (Bell); and Englishman Henry Risby.
The other German bladesmiths followed King Charles I to his new headquarters at Oxford, where they would have worked at the blade mill at Glouster Hall, Oxford, or the sword mill at Wolvercote, near Oxford. They were Peter Munsten (English) the Younger, Caspar Fleisch, Clemens Horn the Younger, Johannes Hoppe (Hoppie) the Younger, Heinrich (Henry) Hoppe (Hoppie) the Elder, Johannes Meigen, Clemens (Clames) Meigen, and Caspar Karn (Carnis).
OK, back to me:
The perspicacious amongst you will note the absence of Peter Henekels; an oversight probably or... where was he before he showed up at Shotley Bridge? It's just such little mysteries that have me chasing red herrings but occasionally turning up interesting facts along the way.
Respect, Mr. Bezdek.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

With reference for my request for information about the roll-forge still at use in WKC Solingen: I spoke to Andre Willms at WKC and he referred me to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen, but unfortunately they were not able to help either. Somebody must know!

Keith, in trying to respond to this I have to admit I am not familiar with metal working processes, so unclear what a 'roll forge' is. However, it seems possible that the 'rolling mill' might be what is meant?

The rolling mill was apparently around in England with Henry Cort and Funtley iron mills near Fareham, England with a patent around 1783. There seem to have been uses of this in Sweden earlier (1760s) and probably earlier. These apparently roll forged steel into the thinner stock for blades.

This further seems to have been known even as early as mid 17th century, as Robert Porter of Birmingham had a mill which supplied as many as 15,000 blades to Parliamentary forces in 1642. This in addition to the blades produced in Hounslow.
q.v. "The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'.

The Royalist forces destroyed his mill after Edgehill (1643). However his son seems to have continued in Birmingham with blades as in 1686 he approached the Cutlers Company for approval.

In Aylward (1945, p.32) it is noted that the Hollow Sword Co. backed by Lord Dartmouth "...had a rolling mill at Hounslow, but in spite of this it petitioned for a patent for the importation, trial and marking of blades".
(this from "The Shotley Bridge Sword Blade Co." Appleby-Miller, 1943)

Interesting that this entry alludes to the Hollow Sword Co. which we know was centered at Shotley Bridge, but mentions a rolling mill at Hounslow. Hounslow by 1672 was in complete shambles by then, so why mention it as a viable mill for blades? Further it is clear that blades were to be brought in to be finished.

It sounds as if Birmingham production was pretty sound in these times, but their blades were not highly favored if I recall other notes.

Aylward (p.33) claims that small swords of Shotley Bridge may exist but none have tang marks which might identify them, and that it seems that the company imported forgings from Solingen which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley. He provides lists of the makers there from Henry Hooper (Hoppe?) 1687; Adam Oley 1692; includes others Mohl and Oley and through the 18th century, with William Oley last in 1808.
Hermann Mohl is listed as a grinder 1687-1717.
Remember he is the one arrested with chests of blades in 1703 from Holland (Solingen blades) suggesting this practice of importation was right.

It does not seem that iron deposits or smelting were key to the location chosen for the Shotley premises, as the 'cementation' process required iron ore of higher quality, which was imported from Sweden to the port at Newcastle.

Regarding the case of Solingen, they apparently depended greatly on Swedish iron as well, though the deposits near there were high in manganese needed for pliable blades. Beech forests provided well for the carbon needed.
It seems there are mixed reviews on the actual production, the materials etc. so more work needed.

So why Shotley? Hounslow was still extant in some degree in 1672 and had mills, so why not refurbish it? Birmingham was active in production, but were their blades disfavored?
If Shotley and the Hollow Blade scam were just a front, why are Shotley makers listed through the entire 18th c. and why even into the 19th?

The rolling mills were introduced in Solingen in 1847.......Burton went there in 1860s and they were still using hammer and anvil. Why did the most industrious blade making center in the world not have these 'rolling mills' until mid 19th c. when it seems they were around early in the 17th and in England?

The more I read on these conundrums the more questions!

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Jim. I am sure that you are correct and it was a rolling mill they were referring-to.
I am equally puzzled as to why WKC in Solingen needed to buy a patent from us Brits; hence my following it up. However, the vexed subject of 'Luddites' is ever present when talking about Solingen, as I'm certain the introduction of machines was one of the main reasons why the sword-smiths were allowed to leave so easily.
Of course, Solingen is a Catholic city, so maybe it was the Lutherans that were surplus to requirements when the machines came along. That is what they were you know; they even brought a Lutheran preacher to Shotley Bridge with them: a fact I only discovered a couple of days ago when searching the archives of the museum that originally held Lord Gort's collection of swords in permanent display. There is nothing at Hamsterly Hall now, nor has there been for thirty years at least; Lord Gort left his collection to said museum in his will; I discovered that talking to the new owners of the hall many years ago.
Still, on that note, I'm scheduled to visit many of our manor-houses and inhabited castles, as we have an abundance, as I'm sure you are aware. I know a few of the local aristos which gets my foot in the door: Alnwick Castle, for example, has a huge armoury, and Mr. Percy is always looking for fundraising ideas now Mr. Potter has retired.
In reference to Aylward's mention of the Hollow Blade Co. at Hounslow: I am certain this is an error.
The Germans at SB initially used local iron ore – there are an abundance of old mines known locally as the German Bands – but soon switched to Swedish imports before eventually using Dan Hayward, which is what Sir Ambrose Crowley was doing as well.
With regard to Hounslow: according to one source, the latest 'dated' Hounslow blade known is 1637 (that needs corroborating), but deliveries from William Walker, who owned a mill at Hounslow, were still on-going in 1660 when he supplied the Board of Ordnance with 1,000 Hangers for sea service. In 1674, Peter Munsten (English) and Henry Hoppe (the elder) approached the London Cutlers Company intending to establish a hollow ground sword blade factory in Hounslow, but nothing happened. Apparently, there was almost no output from Hounslow by 1675.
I certain that the initial enterprise at SB in 1685 with Hoppe, Dell and Henekels was for hollow blade small-swords (they had brought their German grinding engine with them after-all) but the demand for military blades that subsequently materialised meant that the extra 19 families were brought over. I don't think secrecy was required to protect their processes – the Germans had been keeping their secrets safe for over a hundred years, since the Greenwich arsenal began – I think it was to allow them to supply both sides during the Jacobite rebellions; and allow Mohll to beef-up productivity by bringing in Solingen stock. It's quite probable that the death of the Earl of Derwentwater in 1716 may have put paid to their cash cow.
The search goes ever on and on…

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a great thread Kieth well done on digging out all the names and other details... Something sparks in my mind about the rolling mill situation as the swordmakers backs onto the Derwent and at that point you can see a derelict eroded wall and I think this encased the rolling mil. Emphasis on I think ! There was I understand a huge stone wheel shaped object lying against one of the supporting walls and I believe it was at the terminus of a number of water courses drawn from about 500 metres up river which were tunneled under the road at the Durham end of the Bridge. The water may have been brought in to turn the wheel...and for tempering etc This wheel was a gigantic stone grinding wheel...of several tons ...and it seems to have gone? Has the Beamish Industrial Museum got it? There is a reference to it in one of my web references which I will try to dig up.

Having dug that up....Chapter 3: To Shotley

Bygate mentions that corn milling and coal mining were established in the local area and that there were accredited English swordmakers in Newcastle. He also refers to a half-sculpted grind stone next to the River Derwent

Could this have been a rolling mill grind stone ...?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I begin to have my doubts on some of the supposed Shotley Swords ...or claimed as Shotley swords...such as from~

https://collection.maas.museum/object/241752

Although it would fit very nicely into my suggestion that since the hotel/public house; ...The Crown and Crossed Swords was part of the Sword makers estate; ...that if the emblem was Two English basket swords crossed below a crown;...that swords of the Basket variety would have been made there?...see below.
On reflection the sword dates seem somewhat odd...perhaps a typing error....since if Shotley didn't start making swords til 1685 how can a sword with 1596 be slated here as from there?... Would it not simply be a Solingen sword?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What of this one ? ~ It seems genuine especially with Shotley Bridge inscribed down the blade in capital letters....

Write up by Thomas Del Mare on this sold item...

Quote"AN ENGLISH BRASS-HILTED SMALL-SWORD, CIRCA 1740
inscribed 'Shotley Bridge' and incised with the running fox, brass hilt cast in low relief, comprising double shell-guard with moulded brim interrupted on each side by a panel of scrolls centring on a grotesque, each face divided into a six-petalled flower incorporating allegorical figures and a pair of classical profile masks, globular quillon, near rectangular knuckle-guard, and ovoid pommel decorated with tendrils issuant from a grotesque mask, and the grip bound with plaited wire and 'Turks' heads'
72.5cm; 28 1/2in blade.'' Unquote.

[Hotspur]

A site I have never spent enough time with. I have a lot on shelves over there gathering dust.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

The Hollow Sword Co comes up frequently in a legal aspect. I am forgetting the particulars but the issues during the later 18th century. Worth spending a bit of time there running searches from an enormous database.

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. You have found some vital material here, thank-you. I note Jenny Morrison's involvement in some of the material: she is head of Archaeology for the county but has just returned from her holidays so I am waiting to hear from her regarding this iron and steel issue; I have consulted her a few times in the past; she is sitting on a wealth of information that she can enthusiastically supply without effort.
"Finding a lost play" perfectly put! It is precisely why I have embraced the iron industry in general, and the Derwent Valley in particular. My research into Wootz got me started, and I rapidly began to appreciate just how closely connected are the two industries; with steel surviving, of course, and sword-making becoming a cultural craft.
This research led me - inevitably - to Benjamin Huntsman the clock-maker from Doncaster, who moved to Sheffield's environs as he began his crucible manufacturing. I came across an interesting note on Wikipedia that is apropos of little but the probability that it was Klingenthal where it went; although I am only guessing here - I am certain someone will know for sure:
The local (Sheffield) cutlery manufacturers refused to buy Huntsman's cast steel, as it was harder than the German steel they were accustomed to using. For a long time Huntsman exported his whole output to France.
As I have already stated, the arrival of the Germans in Shotley Bridge was never fully justified - considering the vast number of alternatives, but once you put the iron and steel industry into the equation it becomes far more realistic a proposition.
I don't, however, discount the abundance of necessary facilities and materials available, because they were a pre-requisite. I am particularly interested in Richardson's statement about the water being radio-active; I am determined to track down just what was meant by that and where the proposition came from, as Richardson doesn't say. There was also the business of the water being the equal of the Tagus: just what exactly are we talking about here? Mineral content? Isotopes? What else?
There is still much to confirm however: in particular, the presence of Bertram prior to 1685. I know he was shipwrecked in 1690, but I don't take that to mean he was not here before then; I have to look into that.
One thing I am learning, as I progress with researching history, is that I mustn't jump on the odd piece of information – or even a much repeated myth, like Mohll becoming Mole – just because it presents a convincing scenario. For example, three times in 24 hours I have read that in one case Bertram, and in two cases Hayford, had sword-works in Shotley Bridge: is this true? has it been overlooked by everyone so far? Like I said, don't grasp at stuff just because it fits the picture. A supreme example of this would be to consider that sword-making existed in Shotley Bridge prior to 1685, and that the three members of the Hounslow group simply came up to join existing swordmakers.
I am going to tag a couple of items: one is a report for English Heritage when they took over the care of the Derwentcote forge; the second is a clipping regarding the leading lights of the Sheffield steel industry specifically our very own Denis Hayford.
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Richardson. His Spa water apparently tasted pretty bad... perhaps because of the mineral content or even H2S Sulphurous water is supposed to be good for skin ailments etc...

1847. Jonathan Richardson's Spa in Shotley Bridge

The spring anciently called "Hally Well," now Shotley Spa, was at a distant period noted for its efficacy in the cure of scrofulous complaints ( Literally, relating to scrofula (tuberculosis (or TB like bacteria) of the lymph nodes, particularly of the neck). it fell, however, into disuse, and for a long time no benefit was derived from it, till a prevailing tradition lately induced Jonathan Richardson, Esq., to commence a search upon the spot where it was supposed to exist.
The search was successful. Appropriate buildings, a wellroom, baths, &c, were erected in the rustic style; and Mr. Richardson has opened carriage-drives and promenades upon his estate.
In the village, there are two paper-mills in operation; a market for corn is held weekly, and a fair for cattle every half year.