Old Spanish Knife

fernando · 10th September 2017, 06:00 PM

No doubr this is an Albacete cuchillo. Whether it is old is not so easy to say as to confirm its origin.
In INTRODUION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE, de José Sanchez Ferrer, you will find similar examples, those being from the XVIII century, but regretfully your example is no so old, i am afraid. Looks like the handle was made of two parts and one of them might have been slightly turned, as the decoration doesn't match.

.

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2017, 06:45 PM

Thank you guys for the spot on I.D.!!! What is best is that for those of us not especially well informed on these knives, the link and elaboration with notes really helps a lot. I had no idea what this was even seeing them many times, but in just two entries, the I.D. is sunk in!!!

Thank you!
Even if not old, nice example Ricky, thanks for sharing it.

rickystl · 16th September 2017, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you guys for the spot on I.D.!!! What is best is that for those of us not especially well informed on these knives, the link and elaboration with notes really helps a lot. I had no idea what this was even seeing them many times, but in just two entries, the I.D. is sunk in!!!

Thank you!
Even if not old, nice example Ricky, thanks for sharing it.

Hi Jim.

Thanks for your coments. Yes, I too couldn't believe how fast I received a positive I.D. in just two posts. LOL Doesn't always happen that way. Just my good fortune in this instance.

Rick

rickystl · 10th September 2017, 07:03 PM

Hello Corrado and Fernando.

Thank you very much for the identification. Much appreciated. It's always nice to be able to make a positive ID. OK, so mine is not likely to be as old as I had hoped. LOL That will occassionaly happen. It seems with the evidence you present that this knife style was made for a fairly long period. They must have been popular. Yes, the handle cover is a two-piece brass affair. While the handle holds firm, the two brass pieces are slightly loose and will twist around. I can tell there is wood under the brass so I suspect wood shrinkage. The reason for the mis-match of the engraving.

Thanks again for the help.

Rick

fernando · 10th September 2017, 08:35 PM

One more note should be added. This is the type of knife often confused with hunting (plug) bayonets, due to collectors misguidance caused by some well (?) intentioned sellers.

corrado26 · 11th September 2017, 11:09 AM

The hilts in the fotos above are IMO made of two pieces too. This is as I think necessary because only in this way you are able to bring a fitting piece of wood in the interior of the hilt.
corrado26

fernando · 11th September 2017, 11:46 AM

Nothing in contrary

.

rickystl · 16th September 2017, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

The hilts in the fotos above are IMO made of two pieces too. This is as I think necessary because only in this way you are able to bring a fitting piece of wood in the interior of the hilt.
corrado26

Hi Corrado.

It appears the wood portion is one piece, with the two brass pieces installed over the wood and peened tight using a small brass cap on the end.

Since this knife is not very "old", I could take the option of having the wood portion replaced with a new piece of European walnut and reassemble offering a firm grip. Would not be a difficult job having the old wood as a pattern.

What do you guys think ?

Rick

Dmitry · 24th April 2020, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Corrado.

It appears the wood portion is one piece, with the two brass pieces installed over the wood and peened tight using a small brass cap on the end.

Since this knife is not very "old", I could take the option of having the wood portion replaced with a new piece of European walnut and reassemble offering a firm grip. Would not be a difficult job having the old wood as a pattern.

What do you guys think ?

Rick

I know this thread is not recent, but I would advise no to un-peen the tang. The knife looks pretty good the way it is/was.
Also, why do you think your knife isn't as old as the one shown by Fernando? The construction and decor are in the same style, and done in the same fashion. Late 18th-early 19th c. doesn't sound incorrect.

rickystl · 16th September 2017, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

One more note should be added. This is the type of knife often confused with hunting (plug) bayonets, due to collectors misguidance caused by some well (?) intentioned sellers.

Thanks Fernando.

Yes, I can visualize this being confused as a plug type bayonet. It does seem that this handle/hilt style remained popular for a long time. I've seen photos of different blade shapes, still retaining this style of handle/grip.

Rick

fernando · 16th September 2017, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... I've seen photos of different blade shapes, still retaining this style of handle/grip...

Yes, the same grip would fit both knives (cuchillos) and puñales (daggers).

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2017, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

One more note should be added. This is the type of knife often confused with hunting (plug) bayonets, due to collectors misguidance caused by some well (?) intentioned sellers.

In the wonderfully informative book "The Plug Bayonet" by the late Roger Evans, it is noted that the plug bayonet, or its form, remained in use for many years as a hunting knife actually long after its use in its original manner of use in the gun had ended.

In looking at this interesting knife of the OP, the form also recalls that of the Chilean 'corvo'. The spectrum of Spanish knives is to me, one of the most intriguing and dynamic in often subtle cross influences.

fernando · 16th September 2017, 07:20 PM

Yes indeed, Jim ...
The 'transference' of the plug bayonet from military to civilan was firstly due to its basic resource purpose; to 'plug' it in the hunter's musket barrel after firing its (single) shot, in defence of a wounded game charge ... like boars, for one, would often do. Only later with the advent of multi shot rifles, this bayonet became more of a game cutting tool and soon ended as a wealthy hunters adornment.

I guess i wouldn't personaly associate Albacete knives with Chilean Corvos. As the name tells (corvo=curved), their characteristic blade shape is what makes a difference in its own.

kronckew · 17th September 2017, 09:49 AM

chilean corvos, their national knife, from the latin 'corvus' - 'raven' or 'crow', referring mostly to it's beak, roman war ships developed a 'corvus' to defeat the cartaginian navy. unfamiliar with naval warfare, the romans were doing badly ast sea, so they brought mass production and infantry warfare to cure the problem. a damaged cathagenian warship was recovered, brought to the naval yards at ostia, disassembled, parts numbered and marked and they proceeded to mass produce each part, then assembled them in reverse order of the disassembly, producing a fleet in weeks rather than months.

they then added a 'corvus', a boarding ramp on a pivot near the bow that could be positioned over the side of a carthaginian ship, then dropped, a sharp large hooked steel spike, the 'beak' of the raven, drove into the planking of the deck and held it fast for an infantry assault by roman legionaries. bye-bye carthage.

a modern army issue corvo is also included below. like an arab jambiyah or moroccan koumiyah, the primary edge is inside the curve and used with the point down, also like the slightly larger roman corvus.

fernando · 17th September 2017, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... chilean corvos, their national knife, from the latin 'corvus' - 'raven' or 'crow', referring mostly to it's beak ...

Not the cuervo=raven, Wayne, but the curved=corvo

.

.

10th September 2017, 06:00 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No doubr this is an Albacete cuchillo. Whether it is old is not so easy to say as to confirm its origin. In INTRODUION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE, de José Sanchez Ferrer, you will find similar examples, those being from the XVIII century, but regretfully your example is no so old, i am afraid. Looks like the handle was made of two parts and one of them might have been slightly turned, as the decoration doesn't match. . Attached Images

17th September 2017, 09:49 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	chilean corvos, their national knife, from the latin 'corvus' - 'raven' or 'crow', referring mostly to it's beak, roman war ships developed a 'corvus' to defeat the cartaginian navy. unfamiliar with naval warfare, the romans were doing badly ast sea, so they brought mass production and infantry warfare to cure the problem. a damaged cathagenian warship was recovered, brought to the naval yards at ostia, disassembled, parts numbered and marked and they proceeded to mass produce each part, then assembled them in reverse order of the disassembly, producing a fleet in weeks rather than months. they then added a 'corvus', a boarding ramp on a pivot near the bow that could be positioned over the side of a carthaginian ship, then dropped, a sharp large hooked steel spike, the 'beak' of the raven, drove into the planking of the deck and held it fast for an infantry assault by roman legionaries. bye-bye carthage. a modern army issue corvo is also included below. like an arab jambiyah or moroccan koumiyah, the primary edge is inside the curve and used with the point down, also like the slightly larger roman corvus. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 17th September 2017 at 10:05 AM.

10th September 2017, 06:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you guys for the spot on I.D.!!! What is best is that for those of us not especially well informed on these knives, the link and elaboration with notes really helps a lot. I had no idea what this was even seeing them many times, but in just two entries, the I.D. is sunk in!!! Thank you! Even if not old, nice example Ricky, thanks for sharing it.

10th September 2017, 07:03 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello Corrado and Fernando. Thank you very much for the identification. Much appreciated. It's always nice to be able to make a positive ID. OK, so mine is not likely to be as old as I had hoped. LOL That will occassionaly happen. It seems with the evidence you present that this knife style was made for a fairly long period. They must have been popular. Yes, the handle cover is a two-piece brass affair. While the handle holds firm, the two brass pieces are slightly loose and will twist around. I can tell there is wood under the brass so I suspect wood shrinkage. The reason for the mis-match of the engraving. Thanks again for the help. Rick

10th September 2017, 08:35 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	One more note should be added. This is the type of knife often confused with hunting (plug) bayonets, due to collectors misguidance caused by some well (?) intentioned sellers.

11th September 2017, 11:09 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	The hilts in the fotos above are IMO made of two pieces too. This is as I think necessary because only in this way you are able to bring a fitting piece of wood in the interior of the hilt. corrado26

11th September 2017, 11:46 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Nothing in contrary .

16th September 2017, 07:20 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes indeed, Jim ... The 'transference' of the plug bayonet from military to civilan was firstly due to its basic resource purpose; to 'plug' it in the hunter's musket barrel after firing its (single) shot, in defence of a wounded game charge ... like boars, for one, would often do. Only later with the advent of multi shot rifles, this bayonet became more of a game cutting tool and soon ended as a wealthy hunters adornment. I guess i wouldn't personaly associate Albacete knives with Chilean Corvos. As the name tells (corvo=curved), their characteristic blade shape is what makes a difference in its own.