Karud: the weapon that did not exist:-)

[Mercenary]

Ariel, I have been searching for you some references for kirch, but look what I have found in Baden-Powell hand-book. I forgot about it.
Specially for you

[estcrh]

Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum
1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region
in 1984)

123 different daggers and knives from Islamic countries from the 17th-19th Century
60 pages, 2 color plates, numerous black and white photos, descriptions and history of development in German language.

[estcrh]

Egerton seemed to label just about any type of dagger as "pesh kabz". I give credit to the people who tried to sort out the distinct types by applying individual names. Some people seem to have just gone along with Egerton while others did not, which eventually led us to the current discussion. You can see what is clearly a pesh kabz #717, with two kards #721 and #722 and what looks to be a choora / karud #624


An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms: Being a Classified and Descriptive Catalogue of the Arms Exhibited at the India Museum: with an Introductory Sketch of the Military History of India, Earl Wilbraham Egerton Egerton
W.H. Allen, 1880.

[estcrh]

George Stone basically followed Egerton. As noted earlier he also separately mentions the "karud" as being a straight bladed pesh kabz, referencing Moser, but in his illustration he has karud and pesh kabz lumped together and states that "as a rule the blade is straight" so are we to assume that the curved bladed pesh kabz were not well represented in that time period leading Stone to think that the straight blade was the most common construction? In our time, with the benefit of the internet, we have access to many images of karud and pesh kabz.

[estcrh]

P.Holstein, "Contribution A L’Etude des Armes Orientales", 1931. Vol. II, plate XX, the author shows both pesh kabz and karud daggers.

[Mercenary]

Estcrh,

Very clearly. Million thanks.
Even if "karud" emerged as "kangaroo", as "kangaroo" it has the right to exist. #historydidit.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

P.Holstein, "Contribution A L’Etude des Armes Orientales", 1931. Vol. II, plate XX, the author shows both pesh kabz and karud daggers.

Well Eric
Holstein speaks only of pesh kabz...
The text under the picture is not from Holstein...
Nevertheless I share your general opinion.
Best,
Kubur

[ariel]

Eric,

Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-)


Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position?

And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet".

Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with?

[estcrh]

So, is the kerala dagger a form of the pesh kabz?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Ariel, I have been searching for you some references for kirch, but look what I have found in Baden-Powell hand-book. I forgot about it.
Specially for you

From the book, here you see kirch (straight sword) mentioned as well as khanjar, which is described as a bigger version of the bichua dagger shown, which does not look like what we would call a "bichua". No mention of a curved pesh at all.

HAND-BOOK of the MANUFACTURES AND ARTS of the PUNJAB, 1872, B.H. BADEN POWEL

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by estcrh

...which does not look like what we would call ...

It is solely our problems. In the book all right.

Peshkabz is just an object which necessary to keep differently unlike all Indian daggers. If it straight or curve - it is only the details.

[estcrh]

Kard daggers from George Stone.

[Ian]

Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.

Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ian

Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.

Ian, I have not disagreed with Ariels thoughts on the subject except for his suggestion that the word "karud" no longer be used.....as we can all see there has been over time a progression as far as terms go. First there were general terms, then over time people struggled to categorize the many different forms into more identifiable categories based of certain features, either by blade, or hilt, overall shape etc.

For example, some sources mention the pesh kabz as only being straight bladed, with no mention of a curved blade, others take a completely different route and they lump the curved bladed and straight bladed together, while some people call the curved bladed type a pesh kabz and the straight bladed ones as karud.

There are no real rules, its good to have as much of the existing data available in one place and for people to make up their own minds based on how they see things.

Originally Posted by Ian

Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.

Now this would be an interesting new discussion.

[estcrh]

The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.

In keeping with the intention that this publication should be intelligible to the general reader as well as the specialist, foreign terms have been kept to a minimum.

[ariel]

OK Eric , you won.

"Don't worry, be happy" :-)

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.

Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.

The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????

What is written in the descriptions of museums it is only for curious visitors.
At the forum there is slang, in conversations of collectors and dealers, in the descriptions of museums and richly illustrated books there is slang too.
Nobody forbids us to know that water it is H2O, but we ask "water" when we thirsty. Do not read the descriptions in the museums and albums at all except for items outside your circle of interests ))

[kronckew]

this thread: time for the funeral i think....