Child Keris

[Bejo]

Hello,

From what I know keris for woman or a child is called patrem. Do you have any idea how to determine whether a patrem keris is made for a woman or a child?

Attached is my patrem keris. It is 29 cm long.
Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

[Jean]

Hello Joe,
If the blade alone is 29 cm long, it is not really a patrem but a short kris IMO. Patrem kris blades are usually about 20 cm long.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Joe,
If the blade alone is 29 cm long, it is not really a patrem but a short kris IMO. Patrem kris blades are usually about 20 cm long.
Regards

I would agree with this, unless your 29 cm measurement is for the entire keris including the hilt.
Bejo, i don't know of any particular way to determine if an actual patrem was made for a woman or a child.

[Bejo]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Joe,
If the blade alone is 29 cm long, it is not really a patrem but a short kris IMO. Patrem kris blades are usually about 20 cm long.
Regards

Originally Posted by David

I would agree with this, unless your 29 cm measurement is for the entire keris including the hilt.
Bejo, i don't know of any particular way to determine if an actual patrem was made for a woman or a child.

Hello,

Thank you for your opinions,
29 cm is from gonjo to the top of wilah.

Any idea how do we call a keris that has smaller size than it's usual tangguh?

Let us say, a Majapahit keris with size 29 cm is quite normal. But, for a Mataram keris 29 cm is quite uncommon. (From my experience, the normal size will be about 34-37cm).

I have tried to compare this keris with other Mataram keris. Although they maybe are from two different Mataram tangguh(In my opinion the small one was younger than the other). The small keris has smaller size of gandik (pejetan and tikel alis) than the normal one. You can check the attached picture below. The normal one has 36,5 cm size.

Thank you,


Best regards,

Joe

[kulbuntet]

Hi all,

I could be wrong(please correct me if i am) but as far i was told, a patrem keris is just a short keris, not a short keris for a woman or child. I was explained that the keris was a man thing, and that one must had a certain age to own one. And that in most area's the women did not own their own keris. Only the head women of the Minagkabau on Sumatra had a own keris. Also a short keris, could be owned and wore by a man who did not wanted to be seen wearing one (personal opinion of a good friend and keris collector in my country), also did he told me that a imam or dukun often owned a patrem. He also pointed out illustrations of Iman Pangeran Diponegoro, were you clearly see him with several kerises that are smaller than usual, and can be considered to be called patrem. I personally do not link the name patrem keris to the ownership by a child or woman, since more then one person confirmed me this not to be correct.

Abut this keris first looks like the mendak is upside down. For the blade the photo's give me the impression that the gonjo is of different material then the blade it self, could be placed later. I have the feeling that the blade could have been longer, and that it was reworked. Could the bigger blade been broken? This is just my impression, and i am not a expert in any way. Just wanted to share this with you, and interested in the points of view of all others regarding this option.

Kind regards Michel
Kind regards

-Edit- P.S. I forgot to mention keris used by woman on Java preforming dance and/or wayang.

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi all,

I could be wrong(please correct me if i am) but as far i was told, a patrem keris is just a short keris, not a short keris for a woman or child. I was explained that the keris was a man thing, and that one must had a certain age to own one. And that in most area's the women did not own their own keris. Only the head women of the Minagkabau on Sumatra had a own keris. Also a short keris, could be owned and wore by a man who did not wanted to be seen wearing one (personal opinion of a good friend and keris collector in my country), also did he told me that a imam or dukun often owned a patrem. He also pointed out illustrations of Iman Pangeran Diponegoro, were you clearly see him with several kerises that are smaller than usual, and can be considered to be called patrem. I personally do not link the name patrem keris to the ownership by a child or woman, since more then one person confirmed me this not to be correct.

Abut this keris first looks like the mendak is upside down. For the blade the photo's give me the impression that the gonjo is of different material then the blade it self, could be placed later. I have the feeling that the blade could have been longer, and that it was reworked. Could the bigger blade been broken? This is just my impression, and i am not a expert in any way. Just wanted to share this with you, and interested in the points of view of all others regarding this option.

Kind regards Michel
Kind regards

-Edit- P.S. I forgot to mention keris used by woman on Java preforming dance and/or wayang.

Michel, i don't necessarily disagree with everything you say here, but i am fairly certain that there are indeed many instances of patrem being made specifically for women. AFAIK, they were generally woman of some status, not the common folk and again, AFAIK, this is specific to Jawa and Madura (possibly parts of Sumatra as well). I personally own patrem that can indeed be traced to their original female owners. These should not be confused with the keris used in dance performance which general seem to be of a normal size (at least the ones i've seen). But it is just impossible to speak about the customs of keris cultures in any general manner because what was/is done in Jawa, for instance, is not necessarily so in Sulawesi or the Peninsula or elsewhere. However, i believe you can find many smaller keris throughout Indonesia that do indeed serve the purpose of grown men, not boys or women (frankly i have always been a little skeptical about keris for children as i would think that as you mention, a keris would not come to a young man until he was of a certain age and fully capable of owning a full sized keris. Keris are not, after all, children's toys).
In many parts of Indonesia the size of the keris reflects upon the man and owning a petite keris would not necessarily reflect favorably upon that person. I have also seen different measuring methods that are used to make sure that a keris is made to the "correct" size for an individual, sometimes based upon the size of certain body parts such as the thumb. Usually those methods would not produce a patrem sized blade except, perhaps, in the case of an extremely small individual.
Of course, on the Peninsula and, i believe, parts of Sumatra you have keris selit, which are usually small and a bit fancy. But i do not think that the keris selit is meant to be a person's only keris and is really more a secondary item of dress than your most important keris. Please correct me if i am wrong.
I am also aware that many dukun have been known to own smaller, usually rather crudely forged keris blades. Or, at least, many small, crudely forged blades have been presented as dukun keris on ePray regardless of the truth behind it. Certainly many collectors find the notion of owning a dukun blade attractive, so it is difficult fro me to discern between truth and hype in these cases.
There is also the case of talisman keris or jimat keris, though these are generally even smaller than the usual patrem.

[A. G. Maisey]

I am in agreement with David's comments.

My following remarks apply only to Jawa, that is, The Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa.

The word "patrem" is found in Old Javanese, it comes from the Sanscrit root "pattra", sometimes spelt "patra". In Sanscrit "patra" or "pattra" means the wing or feather of a bird.

In Old Javanese this word "pattra" has a number of meanings, and can also form a part of another word, and the same is true of the Sanscrit root. However, the word "patrem" in Old Javanese refers to the blade of a sword, knife, dagger or keris of small size that is often, but not always, used by a woman.

In Modern Javanese the meaning is similar to the meaning in Old Javanese , but that meaning is not as widely applied as in OJ , also the distinction between the complete implement and the blade only of the implement is not made, thus in MJ a patrem is to be understood as a small keris or dagger (cunderik/cundrik).

However, notwithstanding these academic definitions, in common usage in Central Jawa, the patrem is understood to be a woman's keris, and the reason that many high ranking women attached to the kraton carried such a keris was to indicate their readiness to commit suicide in the event that the kraton was over-run by an enemy.

In Javanese traditional thought a woman has no life that is not a part of her husband's life, thus it is desirable that a woman should immediately follow her husband in death, and it is unthinkable that a woman could accept violation by another man whilst her husband is still alive.

This of course is the ideal, the reality was and is somewhat different, but the patrem remains as a symbolic indicator of the ideal.

In respect of the size of a Javanese keris, the blade should be made to reflect both physical size and societal status of the owner, and the dress must be made to reflect these attributes.