Silver Keris

mariusgmioc · 29th August 2017, 09:43 AM

Thank you gentlemen for your input, and I am happy I learned new things about my Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga would be keris.

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java. And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).

So I reiterate my original question:

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.

Roland_M · 29th August 2017, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.

"why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?"

One reason is the description of the Hollenstedt-exhibition, which shows similar examples. Another is the smooth blade. I can make one or two pictures, to demonstrate clearly, that the surface is very smooth, almost mirror finished.

In my opinion it would be impossible to weld a figure onto a Pamor-blade without destryoing the Pamor. Welding two pieces of steel together, requires a temperature bewteen 1200 and 1300°C. On a finished blade, this will have massive effects. Directly around the figure the pamor is undisturbed.

The overall condition of the blade is just too bad for a 10 year old blade without the tiniest signs of artifical aging.

Regards,
Roland

Sajen · 29th August 2017, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java.

Hello Marius,

this I haven't asked you. I've asked "in this execusion"! Java was in great parts before it get islamicized Hindu, so it's clear that you can see still Ganesha. Garuda is the heraldic symbol of Indonesia so also not a great surprise to see it also in the Muslim areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).

You give the answer byself, the ones you speak about are fairly recent and they will have a very different execusion. And the one antique keris with Ganesha or better elephant you have shown is very different.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2017, 09:17 PM

Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time.

Incidentally, sometimes the addition of such a figure could be 100% legitimate. not some attempt to create a forgery in order to raise market value, in these cases the legitimacy related to a change in status or talismanic enhancement.

The way it is done is to weld a piece of pamor material onto the gandhik area of the keris, in older keris, this piece of material is sometimes taken from the front part of the blade. When the weld has been completed, the added piece of pamor is carved and the blade is refinished.

If the joint between the added piece of pamor and the blade is too obvious, the added figure is often covered with kinatah work. Sometimes we can detect and added piece of material because the grain runs in a different direction from the grain in the rest of the blade. However, this is never a certain tell that the material was added after the blade was already old, because sometimes there would be insufficient material at the gandhik prior to the blade being made from the original forging, so the smith would add a bit of extra material here before he began the cold work.

It is not particularly difficult to control weld heat to add a small piece of material to a blade. I have done it with both plain mechanical damascus and nickel damascus, and I was never even close in skill to the Javanese smiths of long ago.

Roland_M · 30th August 2017, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time.

Thank you for your illustrative explanation, as always impressive illuminating for me.

So if the Ganesha was added later to the blade, it was done in a very skillfull way.

Roland

29th August 2017, 09:43 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Thank you gentlemen for your input, and I am happy I learned new things about my Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga would be keris. However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java. And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu). So I reiterate my original question: why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect? And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?! Regards, Marius PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 29th August 2017 at 01:46 PM.

29th August 2017, 09:17 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time. Incidentally, sometimes the addition of such a figure could be 100% legitimate. not some attempt to create a forgery in order to raise market value, in these cases the legitimacy related to a change in status or talismanic enhancement. The way it is done is to weld a piece of pamor material onto the gandhik area of the keris, in older keris, this piece of material is sometimes taken from the front part of the blade. When the weld has been completed, the added piece of pamor is carved and the blade is refinished. If the joint between the added piece of pamor and the blade is too obvious, the added figure is often covered with kinatah work. Sometimes we can detect and added piece of material because the grain runs in a different direction from the grain in the rest of the blade. However, this is never a certain tell that the material was added after the blade was already old, because sometimes there would be insufficient material at the gandhik prior to the blade being made from the original forging, so the smith would add a bit of extra material here before he began the cold work. It is not particularly difficult to control weld heat to add a small piece of material to a blade. I have done it with both plain mechanical damascus and nickel damascus, and I was never even close in skill to the Javanese smiths of long ago.